quote:

Originally posted by Amy:
I also think it's hard for a white guy to understand black anger - particularly from black folks who lived through segregation and the civil rights movement. If you don't like that arguement, that's fine but it also proves that nothing anyone says will change your mind anyway.

Ummm, Barack Obama never lived through segregation - nor the civil rights movement. He lived an intellectually stimulating international life as the child of extremely well educated and decidedly middle to upper middle class parents and grandparents in Hawaii and Indonesia. He attended some of the finest schools available his entire life and lived without want.

He was born in Hawaii and spent much of his youth in Indonesia with his mother and oil executive stepfather before returning to Hawaii in 1971 at his request and living with his senior bank executive grandmother and grandfather until his mother returned in 1974.

Here is some more on that timeline from wiki:

quote:

... When the young Obama asked to return to Hawaii for upper school rather than stay in Asia with her she agreed, despite the decision being painful for her.[2] In 1971, at the age of 10, Barack was sent back to Honolulu to live with his maternal grandparents, where he attended the prestigious Punahou School. Madelyn Dunham's job as Vice-President at The Bank of Hawaii helped pay the steep tuition [10]... Dunham was not estranged from either ex-husband, and encouraged her children to feel connected to their fathers. She returned to graduate school in Honolulu in 1974, while raising Barack and Maya. When Dunham returned to Indonesia for field work in 1977 with Maya, Barack chose not to go, concentrating on his struggle to define himself; Dunham again acquiesed, despite it being personally painful for her.[2]

I had read and responded to your earlier comment:

quote:

Originally posted by Amy:

I dare you to find a person of the same generation/age group as Obama, with an absent father and conflicted teen years coming to grips with his identity who didn't get into the alcohol and drug scene in college. Do you NOT GET all that he has overcome? Do you not get how he came from a very humble life filled with all kinds of normal life events - mistakes and all - and yet became a brilliant orator demonstrating great intelligence? Do you not get that this man has actually LIVED in another country and knows what it means to assimilate in a totally different culture?

I was struck by the remark, "Do you NOT GET all that he has overcome?". And had responded by quoting his past friends remark accusing him of embellishing his history in order to create an aura around himself. And now my flu and I are going back to bed.

I hate to overstep my bounds here, but I think Amy was referring to Rev. Wright's anger. Please correct me if I'm wrong, Amy, but just this once.

She explicitly refers to Obama,

quote:

"I dare you to find a person of the same generation/age group as Obama, with an absent father and conflicted teen years coming to grips with his identity ... Do you NOT GET all that he has overcome?

It's also difficult to place Wright as under segregation and the civil rights movement.

He grew up in Philadelphia, the child of well educated and well employed parents in an integrated mixed race neighborhood and attended the academically challenging 90% white magnet school " Central High ". He was reported to be a well liked and well respected member of his class. He attended college and while in the military was the bedside corpsman for President Johnson - for which he was personally thanked by the President.

If you're looking for an example of what it means to grow up under segregation and the civil rights movement look perhaps at Condi Rice.

quote:

born in Birmingham, Alabama and grew up in the neighborhood of Titusville.

Rice experienced firsthand the injustices of Birmingham's discriminatory laws and attitudes. She was instructed to walk proudly in public and to use the facilities at home rather than subject herself to the indignity of "colored" facilities in town. As Rice recalls of her parents and their peers, "they refused to allow the limits and injustices of their time to limit our horizons."[5]

Rice recalls various times in which she suffered discrimination on account of her race, which included being relegated to a storage room at a department store instead of a regular dressing room, being barred from going to the circus or the local amusement park, being denied hotel rooms, and even being given bad food at restaurants.[4] ... she was very aware of the civil rights struggle and the problems of Jim Crow Birmingham. A neighbor, Juliemma Smith, described how "Condi used to call me and say things like, 'Did you see what Bull Connor did today?' She was just a little girl and she did that all the time. I would have to read the newspaper thoroughly because I wouldn’t know what she was going to talk about."[4] Rice herself said of the segregation era:

"Those terrible events burned into my consciousness. I missed many days at my segregated school because of the frequent bomb threats."[4]
Rice was eight when her schoolmate Denise McNair, aged 11, was killed in the bombing of the primarily black Sixteenth Street Baptist Church by white supremacists on September 15, 1963. Rice has commented upon that moment in her life:

quote:

"I remember the bombing of that Sunday School at 16th Street Baptist Church in Birmingham in 1963. I did not see it happen, but I heard it happen, and I felt it happen, just a few blocks away at my father’s church. It is a sound that I will never forget, that will forever reverberate in my ears. That bomb took the lives of four young girls, including my friend and playmate, Denise McNair. The crime was calculated to suck the hope out of young lives, bury their aspirations. But those fears were not propelled forward, those terrorists failed.[10]"

Or even, for that matter the woman who left Wrights church after Wright went to visit Libyan leader Qaddafi with his good friend Minister Louis Farrakhan - Oprah:

quote:

Oprah Winfrey (originally Orpah after the Biblical character in the Book of Ruth), was born in Kosciusko, Mississippi, to unmarried parents. She later explained that her conception was due to a single sexual encounter that her two teenaged parents had; they quickly broke up not long after. ...Her parents were unmarried teenagers.[22] Her mother, Vernita Lee, was a housemaid, and her father, Vernon Winfrey, was a coal miner ...After her birth, Winfrey's mother traveled north and Winfrey spent her first six years living in rural poverty with her grandmother, Hattie Mae Lee who was so poor that Winfrey often wore dresses made of potato sacks, causing the local children to make fun of her. (Paul Harris. "The Observer Profile: Oprah Winfrey." The Observer (London, UK), 20 November 2005, p.27) On the other hand, it was her grandmother who taught her to read before the age of three and took her to the local church, where she was nicknamed "The Preacher" for her ability to recite Bible verses. When Winfrey was a child, her grandmother would take a switch and would hit her with it when she didn't do chores or if she misbehaved in any way.[23]

At age six, Winfrey moved to an inner-city neighborhood in Milwaukee, Wisconsin with her mother, who was less supportive and encouraging than her grandmother had been, due in large part to the long hours Vernita Lee worked as a maid. ..Winfrey has stated that she was molested by her cousin, uncle, and a family friend, starting when she was nine years old ...
...

. Like many teenagers at the end of the 1960s, Winfrey rebelled, ran away from home and ran to the streets[24]. When she was 14, she became pregnant, but the baby died shortly after birth.[21]Also at that age, her frustrated mother sent her to live with her father in Nashville, Tennessee. Vernon was strict, but encouraging and made her education a priority. Winfrey became an honors student, was voted Most Popular Girl, joined her high school speech team at East Nashville High School, and placed second in the nation in dramatic interpretation. She won an oratory contest, which secured her a full scholarship to Tennessee State University, a historically black institution, where she studied communication....

Working in local media, she was both the youngest news anchor and the first black female news anchor at Nashville's...

This message has been edited. Last edited by: jombl,

Jombl, I was referring to Wright in regard to his anger. Thank you Little...way! Yes, I still think he's gotten a little too angry for his own good. Nonetheless, I can understand some of his anger.

Trying to define Wright's upbringing and dismissing the segregation and discrimination he likely endured simply by living through those times is pretty ignorant. Even those who lived in privileged and mixed neighborhoods faced discrimination. My mother, a white woman, remembers how scared she was at times for black people. She saw the signs on drinking fountains and busses. She saw it first hand and knew she was lucky to be white. Yes, if he'd grown up in the south, he likely would have had to endure much more. But my Mom grew up in the north and witnessed MUCH discrimination. Being in Philly doesn't remove the fact that people can be racist. And of course, I'm not even taking into account how terrifying it must have been to have many of the strong, civil rights leaders (those who gave black people hope) killed. Talk about trying to keep a people down. Jombl, I'm guessing that you are too young to have experienced this. I am too but my parents made sure I knew what it was really like.

I'm just curious which Northern city had signs posted in the buses or on drinking fountains? It was pretty infamous and controversial even in those places in the South with Jim Crow laws but I don't believe it could have existed anywhere in the post war North. (I'm certainly not stating that segregation did not exist in the North or indeed still does, only questioning the formal posting of signs in Northern City buses as under the Jim Crow laws or Plessey)

No offense against your mom, I'm sure she was sincerely trying to impress upon you a lesson.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: jombl,

quote:

Originally posted by jombl:
It's also difficult to place Wright as under segregation and the civil rights movement.

He grew up in Philadelphia, the child of well educated and well employed parents in an integrated mixed race neighborhood and attended the academically challenging 90% white magnet school " Central High ". He was reported to be a well liked and well respected member of his class. He attended college and while in the military was the bedside corpsman for President Johnson - for which he was personally thanked by the President.

If you're looking for an example of what it means to grow up under segregation and the civil rights movement look perhaps at Condi Rice.

quote:

born in Birmingham, Alabama and grew up in the neighborhood of Titusville.

Rice experienced firsthand the injustices of Birmingham's discriminatory laws and attitudes. She was instructed to walk proudly in public and to use the facilities at home rather than subject herself to the indignity of "colored" facilities in town. As Rice recalls of her parents and their peers, "they refused to allow the limits and injustices of their time to limit our horizons."[5]

Rice recalls various times in which she suffered discrimination on account of her race, which included being relegated to a storage room at a department store instead of a regular dressing room, being barred from going to the circus or the local amusement park, being denied hotel rooms, and even being given bad food at restaurants.[4] ... she was very aware of the civil rights struggle and the problems of Jim Crow Birmingham. A neighbor, Juliemma Smith, described how "Condi used to call me and say things like, 'Did you see what Bull Connor did today?' She was just a little girl and she did that all the time. I would have to read the newspaper thoroughly because I wouldn’t know what she was going to talk about."[4] Rice herself said of the segregation era:

"Those terrible events burned into my consciousness. I missed many days at my segregated school because of the frequent bomb threats."[4]
Rice was eight when her schoolmate Denise McNair, aged 11, was killed in the bombing of the primarily black Sixteenth Street Baptist Church by white supremacists on September 15, 1963. Rice has commented upon that moment in her life:
[QUOTE]
"I remember the bombing of that Sunday School at 16th Street Baptist Church in Birmingham in 1963. I did not see it happen, but I heard it happen, and I felt it happen, just a few blocks away at my father’s church. It is a sound that I will never forget, that will forever reverberate in my ears. That bomb took the lives of four young girls, including my friend and playmate, Denise McNair. The crime was calculated to suck the hope out of young lives, bury their aspirations. But those fears were not propelled forward, those terrorists failed.[10]"

We have found Jombl's Dauphine!

Talk about changing the subject. Isn't this thread about Rev. Wright's interview with Bill Moyers?

In any event, you cannot convince me that Philadelphia in the 1950's (or since then) is a beacon of white love for blacks. As for "sucking the hope out of young lives" you give the Birmingham bomber way too much credit. It was the tenor of the times that sucked out hope. Not the bombing.

Condi was a prodigy. That's what helped her more than anything else. Her parents recognized it and you forgot to add the most important thing - she's a Domer! Further from Wiki: Born November 14, 1954 in Birmingham, Alabama, she earned her bachelor's degree in political science, cum laude and Phi Beta Kappa, from the University of Denver in 1974; her master's from the University of Notre Dame in 1975; and her Ph.D. from the Graduate School of International Studies at the University of Denver in 1981.

----Jombl also forgets to add that she overcame that discrimination she suffered as the child of a Presbyterian minister by moving to Denver. (Stand and overcome, you coward!)

From Wiki: Rice started learning French, music, figure skating and ballet at age three.(Like all girls in Birmingham) At age 15, she began classes with the goal of becoming a concert pianist. Her plans changed when she realized that she did not play well enough to support herself through music alone. While Rice is not a professional pianist, she still practices often and plays with a chamber music group. Rice made use of her pianist training to accompany cellist Yo-Yo Ma for Brahms's Violin Sonata in D Minor at Constitution Hall in April 2002 for the National Medal of Arts Awards. (Sort of like Bryan Adams singing with Pavarotti)

In 1967, the family moved to Denver, Colorado. She attended St. Mary's Academy, a private all-girls Catholic high school (see, we Catholics will let anyone with money in the school) in Cherry Hills Village, Colorado. After studying piano at the Aspen Music Festival and School, Rice enrolled at the University of Denver, where her father both served as an assistant dean and taught a class called "The Black Experience in America." Dean John Rice opposed institutional racism, government oppression, and the Vietnam War. (Traitor!)

To paraphrase the Rolling Stones: All the sinners are saints. If you want them to be. A lot of people want Obama to be a saint. He ain't. But he's a far cry better than Dame Clinton of Park Ridge, or the wonderful Republican who finished virtually last in his class at Annapolis, who calls his wife a trollop and a c**t.

There I go again. Changing the subject.

I can taste the mud over here.

Do you also eat with the fingers that typed that last little zinger?

quote:

Originally posted by jombl:
I can taste the mud over here.

Do you also eat with the fingers that typed that last little zinger?

Don't make her more than she is. She's smart and ambitious. Like every other politician out there. Including Obama.

I assure you, my mother did see the white only signs in the north. She lived in and around Indianapolis. She was born in 1940 and wasn't trying to impress a lesson at all by sharing these stories. My father was born two years before my mother and he remembered the signs too. There were many painful and difficult times all the way through the 70's. I still remember people mumbling negative comments under their breath about the first black family that moved into my all white farming community (late 70's, early 80's). Luckily, they were able to meet some pretty nice people, including my parents, who tried to protect them from such comments. As a teenager, I was asked to keep an eye on one of the little girls on our swim team when we went to Elkhart for a swim meet. She had curly dark hair, and somewhat darker skin and Elkhart was the location of the headquarters of the KKK. I remember being very worried and I watched that little girl every moment. Trust me, blacks in the north experienced great fear and hostility well past the civil rights movement.

Reverend Wright and many other blacks in America who were born and lived through the civil rights movement have good reason for anger.....nonetheless, I still agree that he has gone too far. I can't say that he was always going too far in his sermons. Of the things I have seen/heard, his words certainly held some kernels of truth. The delivery leaves a bit to be desired but I'm also used to white preachers.

By the way, Ms. Rice's father was a school counselor.... .

From answer.com: Condoleezza Rice was born in Birmingham, Alabama, on November 14, 1954. Her father, John Wesley Rice, was a school guidance counselor during the week and a Presbyterian minister on the weekends. Her mother, Angelena, was a schoolteacher. The family lived in a middle-class, black community called Titusville, where education was a high priority for children who were expected to succeed regardless of any prejudices or boundaries.