I think Gus may have posted this before, but it's worth posting again.

"You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it.
You cannot legislate the poor into freedom by legislating
the wealthy out of freedom.
What one person receives without working for,
another person must work for without receiving.
The Government cannot give to anybody anything
that the Government does not first take from somebody else.
When half of the people get the idea that they do
not have to work because the other half is going to take
care of them, and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for, that is surely the end of any
nation's future."

Abraham Lincoln

Actually that quote is from Adrian Rogers, conservative, bible thumping, Christianity must takeover government, past president of the Southern Baptist Convention.

I never thought this was from Lincoln. At that time the Federal government was fairly weak. Taxes were small and the concept of using the government to distribute or redistribute wealth was just a gleam in Karl Marx's eye.

But apparently the real source of the quote was a
A rev William J. H. Boetcker a Presbyterian minister. He published it in 1916. Apparently his quote was published in 1942 as part of a pamphlet on limitations. There was next to it an authentic Lincoln quote. Apparently over time the attributions for the Boetcker quote was attributed to Lincoln.
Lincoln quote

Regardless of the author, it resonates with me.

My position is that government and business organizations consist of people. Good and bad. In light of the banking industry disaster I have a little trouble agreeing that one wastes more that the other which would be consistent with my position. Greed is not limited to gov.

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You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it.

...any more than you can multiply it by hiding it in a paper bag under your bed. It must be invested in the time, muscle and brains of others who--although they may not have as much money as you--are more talented than you are. Otherwise, you’d do it yourself.

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You cannot legislate the poor into freedom by legislating the wealthy out of freedom.

Largely because the wealthy write the legislation. By saying “cannot” I hope you mean, “should not,” because it is attempted all the time. In any case, no one is “free” to do anything they damn well please... we call this, “civilization.”

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What one person receives without working for, another person must work for without receiving. The Government cannot give to anybody anything that the Government does not first take from somebody else.

Actually, this also is called “civilization.” Children receive schooling even though they neither built their schools nor pay their teachers. Without such social cooperation by “the government” (we are the government), we would not have clean water, sewers, streets & highways, police & fire protection, courts, prisons, safe food & drugs, an army, navy or air force... etc. We would all have to live like hermits, speak German or Japanese, and be dead by the time we reached 30.

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When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them, and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for, that is surely the end of any nation's future.

] I question the “half” claim. Even in these trying times we have only around 10% unemployment--and most of those people are unemployed against their will and are seeking work as best they know how. Nonetheless, most of us have been and will again be on both sides of the fence over the course of our lifetimes. If you have never been--and are 100% certain that you never will be--unexpectedly unemployed, consider yourself to be very fortunate. If you are independently wealthy, may you never invest your fortune with a Bernie Madoff. In any case--for virtually all of the rest of us--during our working years we contribute. During our youth and our senior years, when we do not or can not work, we survive by the contributions of others. If you are between roughly 20 and 65, healthy and working, again, consider yourself fortunate, for--should you live long enough--you, too, will become old, decrepit, and need the help of others. Again, this is called, “civilization.” Feel free to join it any time.

As usual G you express your thoughts in writing better than I.

The quote is almost a mantra of the far right. Others see it as an expression of selfishness and an attempt by the wealthy to justify greed.

What I really find interesting is that it originated from an ultra conservative Christian minister who recently died. I hope he got a chance to try to explain it to Jesus because there's not lot there that seems to stand for His teachings.
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The difference between government and private industry is the total lack of accountability on the part of government.

How many teachers have gotten fired for incompetence of cause in Illinois in the last year. Forty, fifty. Most big city school districts have "rubber" rooms for teachers who are to incompetent to teach but can't be fired because it takes to long.

9-11 happened because parts of the government didn't work . Any one get fired . No.

The underpants bomber another series of government errors. Again no one will lose their job.

As for the banking crisis. Well Fannie and Feddie are going to cost us hundreds of billions of dollars and again no one is going to lose their job. Including the politicians who encouraged some of that behavior.

Closer to home look at D41 and our PD.

The SEC was warned for years that Bernie Maddoff was running a ponzi scheme. They sat on it. Again no one lost their jobs.

As for some of G's points.

I don't know of to many rich people who keep their money in paper bags. Most know that you have to have your money work for you.

If the wealthy wrote all these laws they sure are doing a bad job of it. What is the marginal tax rate in this country for the wealthy forty, fifty percent.

As for half the people not paying I believe right now federal income taxes are only paid by about fifty percent of all people.

I see no difference- do you know all the fees that you pay private industry in 401k fees? No one does- but essentially it's the majority of your earnings long term. Plus we pay financial firms money even if they lose our money. Banks screw people over daily with ridiculous fees. Insurance companies cherry pick or charge ridiculous premiums. Drug companies rush dangerous drugs to the market. Savings and loan scandal. Defective cars. Pet food that kills your pet. Price collusion (especially on Federal contract bids). Even ice cubes! Years of price collusion and illegal competition on those $2.99 and $3.99 bags of ice.

Not a lot of people lose their jobs in the private world due to corruption or greed. White collar crime has always paid well. We make a few examples out of a few employees once and awhile.

It's easy to blame government as we don't want to look in the mirror and consider that some of our fellow humans, maybe coworkers, act out of greed or incompetence every day. Fact is, we are the government. The government reflects our good and bad sides. And we are private industry

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The difference between government and private industry is the total lack of accountability on the part of government.

You do know that this is a representative democracy, right? That We the People are “the Government,” and that those who represent us are held accountable by elections? (And Attornies General, etc.?)

I do not feel that private industry--be it Exxon, A.I.G., Wall Street, health insurance companies or Blackwater--is held nearly as accountable as those we elect or appoint. (Although, lord knows, private industry is doing the best it can to have lifted what few rules and regulations prevent them from doing anything they wish.)

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How many teachers have gotten fired for incompetence...

Perhaps they are not as incompetent, unethical or as crooked as the pillars if industry.

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9-11 happened because parts of the government didn't work...

No, you have to go back a few more centuries to explain it.

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Any one get fired . No.

Other than the Bush administration and a whole bunch of Senators and Representatives. Oh--and we got to kill hundreds of thousands of people in the Mideast. Much more fun than simply firing the poor souls.

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The underpants bomber another series of government errors. Again no one will lose their job.

Yeah. CitiCorp or GM could have done a much better job of seeing that coming.

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...Fannie and Feddie ... no one is going to lose their job. Including the politicians...

Other than the Bush administration. But I think we agree here... “too big to fail” sucks.

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Closer to home look at D41 and our PD.

Ah, yes. As run by a conservative Republican village in a conservative Republican county. Our very own, ”Heck of a job, Brownie!“

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I don't know of to many rich people who keep their money in paper bags. Most know that you have to have your money work for you.

Exactly. You can't receive interest, dividends or capital gains unless you tap the time, talent, muscle and brains of The Working Class.

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If the wealthy wrote all these laws they sure are doing a bad job of it.

Again,we agree.

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...federal income taxes are only paid by about fifty percent of all people.

Perhaps true. Few under 20 or over 65 pay much in taxes, that's close to half the population right there. Few of the poor working stiffs making minimum wage pay much in taxes. Is your point that the minimum wage earners and the unemployed should pay for everything and Bill Gates et.al. should pay nothing?

Does Saudi Arabia count?

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Again, this is called, “civilization.” Feel free to join it any time.

Not taking the bait, but feel free to judge others whose opinion differs from yours.

Thanks, boss!

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Originally posted by Biostitute:
My position is that government and business organizations consist of people. Good and bad. In light of the banking industry disaster I have a little trouble agreeing that one wastes more that the other which would be consistent with my position. Greed is not limited to gov.

Well put, Bio! I believe at the heart of the matter, we disagree....but this I completely agree with.

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In any case--for virtually all of the rest of us--during our working years we contribute. During our youth and our senior years, when we do not or can not work, we survive by the contributions of others. If you are between roughly 20 and 65, healthy and working, again, consider yourself fortunate, for--should you live long enough--you, too, will become old, decrepit, and need the help of others.

Right on, Gabriel! Except that some of us won't have the opportunity to be helped (i.e. social security will be GONE) by the time we reach retirement age.

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If the wealthy wrote all these laws they sure are doing a bad job of it. What is the marginal tax rate in this country for the wealthy forty, fifty percent.

If it wasn't the wealthy, then who was it? It certainly wasn't the poor! The people who create legislation are wealthy "Good Ole Boys", as are those who pass legislation. They may not be every wealthy person, but they are certainly wealthy.

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As for half the people not paying I believe right now federal income taxes are only paid by about fifty percent of all people.

Seriously? Could you expand on this a little, please?

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Fact is, we are the government. The government reflects our good and bad sides. And we are private industry

Again, well put! Kudos for pointing out facts that are FAR too often overlooked when criticizing our government. It's not the government that's the problem....it's those in the government, those representing US, who're absolutely no different on an individual level than those representing their firms in the private sector!

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with all this money being stolen by the govt from the middle class,

I'm curious as to why you consider it stolen, please expand?

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...how many motor homes, boats, campers, 2nd houses or resort properties, will be bought?

Yeah, I know all about how money works. Cheese => mouse => cat => dog and ll that. So I guess we must thank the lord for kingpin drug dealers and Wall Street bonuses, for without them everybody who builds Learjets would lose their jobs. Right up there with thank god for war, because without it all the people who build weapons and Humvees and bombers would be out of work.

I understand that to be productive, tax-paying citizens have to offer a product or service that people want. Or rather, that clever marketers make prospective buyers think they want or--better yet-- need.

So we have Winnebagos and Sham-Ways and Restless Leg Syndrome and Coca-Cola and disposable everythings keeping our economy humming. I understand. It's just that, well, I think that at the moment I'd rather see people earning a living by manufacturing solar panels or wind turbines than SUVs.

I'm no angel... I've done things to make a buck that didn't do anything to improve humankind, and I've certainly never found a cure for cancer or developed a better way to feed the hungry. But I have been involved in some enterprises that contributed more to the planet than larger landfills. And I've never been a telemarketer.

Anyway... I do understand that making luxury goods for the uber-wealthy is one way of keeping the money flowing and worker bees fed, clothed and housed.

But it isn't the only way.

Gus,
I don't understand why you compare other countries with ours to justify our way of living. Isn't it a little short sided to throw the rest of the world under the bus because you saw things traveling that you personally didn't like? And isn't your comment to gabe

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Do you really think you have the authority or knowledge to determine what is right for the common man?

exactly what you are professing? Keeping with my "point of view"- foreigners are people not much different than us. They put those social systems you deplore in place to try to deal with the same problems we all face. And of course they have their dissenters. Many people in foreign countries look at the way we live the same way you look at them. They wouldn't trade what they have for what we have.

The exception is of course countries with governments like Somalia and possibly Haiti, or third world dictatorships, but were talking about the free world- which does exist beyond the U.S.

And IMO opinion the MSNBC article is BS. Return to "sustainable" debt- how about no borrowing, a balanced budget, and start paying off the debt. And GDP is currently increasing which throws all the #'s out the window.

Great Ford is bringing jobs back but its a foreign company now- profit leaves the U.S. and goes to one of those "other" countries.

And if you want to talk about citizens "sheltering" or not paying taxes- we're the kings at that. tax cheats
I run into plenty of people who do whats outlined in that article.

Quit calling the kettle black gus. We're all in it together in this day and age.

Just me, but I think China, especially, is currently following the worst of our own robber/baron history - great growth, and some good things arising from it, but at the cost of destroying the land, as well as endangering the health of their people and their customers (melamine, anyone? tossing toxic elements into their land and water for cheap manufacturing and recycling). It makes me sad to watch developing countries seemingly not learning a damn thing from the histories of the more industrial nations - and sad about whether there will be healthy future for humanity.

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Originally posted by Biostitute:

And if you want to talk about citizens "sheltering" or not paying taxes- we're the kings at that. tax cheats
I run into plenty of people who do whats outlined in that article.

Yes, and some of them are lucky enough to be appointed to cabinet positions.

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Originally posted by Gus:
I'll even give you a round the world ticket, coach of course, if you like.

Can I have one even if I agree with you? I need a vacation...

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Because they are being robbed of their hard earned wealth if that answers your question Single Mom.

Actually, Gus, simply re-stated what you already said does not answer my question. My question was why you consider it being stolen (or in your new verbiage, why do you consider it them being robbed)?

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Let me ask you a question: Why is Asia doing quite well these days while the US and the EU are recessionary? If I was smart, I would have invested in the Asian stock markets a long time ago.

This is the situation in Asia because at any given point there is a country having some sort of recession....at that same point, there are other countries experiencing and benefiting from ridiculous growth. It's called a world economy. You can't contrast all of the countries in this world as seperate entities when we're all tied into one another. Our economies are dependent on each other, that's what makes up the world economy that we now have.

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Do you not see a middle class person in every american that wants a car or 2 and a house that they can call their own?? You really need to calm your rhetoric. It's not the Bill Gates of this world that are buying sham wows or Winnebagos, it's the blue collar guy (proletariat) too and I'm damn glad for it.

Actually, the middle class has been shown an incredible shrinkage over the last few years. Those who've managed to hold onto that financial class have done so by refraining from unnecessary purchases and making wise investments with minimal risk.

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Quit calling the kettle black gus. We're all in it together in this day and age.

Exactly, Bio! Bravo!

Darl, your comments about China: right on the money!

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they have huge coal deposits that provides the basis for cheap energy

I seem to recall a point in history where the same was said about us. Non-renewable resources are a temporary fix. You can't put a Band-Aid on a skull fracture and expect everything to go back to "normal". It just doesn't work that way.

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Fact of the matter is, there are more re-calls by the FDA for products from Mexican or Indian origin than any other source.

Would you be so kind as to post a supporting source on this fact, please?

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The US is the marvel of the world with the creation of such an enormous economically affluent middle class

This may be true, during times just before economic hardships. It's not the creation of something that makes the creator great....it's the sustaining of it.