quote:

Originally posted by Yossarian:

quote:

You forgot Fan and Ronkas. I don't think I took a shot at you, but in all fairness I probably will.

Thank you, I was feeling a bit left out.

BTW if you find one of my postings (or several) need input or a smart *** comment, Please feel free! I won't take it personally and I promise you I won't get bent out of shape.

First of all, you are funny Amy with the ole "flag pin on the left bank" comment. touche!

HOWEVER, you must note that the American Flag evokes a great sense of pride for many people in this nation, especially from the veterans of our great country from WW2, Korea, and even maybe from Nam. For what reason Barak doesn't wear the flag as token of support for his country absolutely escapes my mind. It may be a petty thing to dwell on but may mean a TON to the guys who stormed Omaha Beach or like my father, Island hopped through the Pacific to rid the world of the most menacing dictatorships man has possibly ever seen. Do not discount such displays of "trivial" tokens on a commander or politician who is supposed to be our commander in chief. If he (Barak) isn't proud his country (like his wife has opined on her own behalf) then he should state his opinion and formulate policies to better it. For better or worse, as we all know, the US is the greatest place on earth and we are fortunate for the past and future sacrifices that have been paid to make it so. Every time my father sees some flake burning the American Flag to display his 1st amendment rights, he wants to take him into the back yard at the prime age of 84 and give him what for.

IMHO, for a potential Pres not to wear the flag is a slap in the face to the veterans, past and present who have sacrificed a helluva lot more than some young senator from Illinois.

Can't wait to hear what McCain would say on some televised debate in response to this issue, a guy who rotted in the Hanoi Hilton for years.

quote:

Originally posted by CovetedLakeEllyn:
Hi,

Amy we are still due for some drinks and light-hearted political discussions. Maybe you will make that bourbon slushee thing again?

In the meantime, I can tell you that my reasons for not supporting Obama have nothing to do with whether or not he wears a pin on his lapel. Or what church he attends. Or his wife, or friends. It is about his voting record, and the fact that he really hasn't done much in the short time he has been in Congress. I was surprised to hear that he had voted "present" many times in his relatively short stint in the senate. This makes me uncomfortable, as I don't know where he stands if he votes "present" and does not take a stand. I guess for me it's his overall lack of tenure and lack of track record. For example, (and this is only one example) he is on the Senate oversight committee for Afghanistan. To date, he has not chaired any meetings on this matter. Yet he has a lot to say about how things have been mishandled. I watched the debate, and when he was asked about this, he admitted that it was probably due to the fact that he has been busy running for President. I'd like to see him have a bit more of an actual track record with accomplishments as Senator before becoming President.

While I will admit that McCain has many faults and points I don't agree with, I think he is the candidate who stands closest in his beliefs to Ronald Reagan. Reagan was (IMO) the last great conservative President. I liked the way Reagan was more moderate on some social issues but strong and conservative on foreign policy and fiscal issues. For me, voting for McCain represents the "least worst" choice. That's sad. But those are the choices we've been given by both parties.

Coveted, everything you have stated, I can respect. You have obviously considered what is most important to you and stated your opinion in a factual manner - it's WONDERFUL! Of course, I have my own reasons why some of the issues that concern you don't concern me but that's why we have different candidates and different parties. It is perhaps because of Obama's lack of political career that I do like him. I think we need someone who can really look at our system and come up with ideas that are truly different. I think there is a greater chance he can do that. However, I completely understand your discomfort.


GEM, I really don't think I've been persecuted. The point I was trying to make is that you take cheap shots and virtually never offer anything of substance to discussions that sometimes do require a degree of thoughtfulness. A cheap shot once-in-a-while, bring it on. A constant stream of nothing but that, well, it's annoying! I love to laugh and people on this board who know me, know that. I am really not thin-skinned - my statements were more to make a point. But, you can take my argument any way you'd like. BTW, I did find the skit about Obama and Clinton in bed pretty darned funny....FWIW.

Gus,
Love ya! And you know what? I totally understand the flag thing. I just don't agree - it's all about your perspective. I am actually super patriotic. I cry nearly every time I hear Lee Greenwood's, "God Bless the USA," I get chills when stealth fighters or F-15s zoom over my head, I sing the National Anthem (not well, I admit), I stand and cover my heart for the pledge...every day at my school...which is really annoying but I don't recite it unless I really mean it. When I recite the Pledge, I don't say, "Under God." You see, I firmly believe that my grandfathers, who both served in WWII (one of my grandfathers was seriously injured, receiving a purple heart and lived with life-long back problems because of his injury), fought for a country that respected our right to Freedom of Religion and separation of church and state. I personally view the forcing of reciting the pledge and saying, "Under God" as a violation of those rights. I understand that others may not agree with me but nonetheless, my belief is firmly planted in my great respect for the history of our country.

That said, I've watched the families of three of my former students grive after their son's died in the military. It breaks my heart and yet, I stand with them in the pride they feel for the great sacrifice their boys made - even though I am angry that we were even in Iraq - at least in the manner which this administration had us enter it.

I also am sensitive about wearing the flag. After living abroad and meeting many "ugly Americans" as well as witnessing STUPID foreign relations moves by our American government, I understand that wearing a flag pin might create some preconceived notions in some people's minds. I don't know if these are some of the same feelings Obama has but my own perspective gives me a sense of why he MIGHT not want to wear that darn pin. As a potential leader of our great country, I would imagine that Obama knows he is not just our leader, he's a WORLD leader too. One of the major jobs the next President will have is to repair some relationships with other countries as well as engage in diplomacy - potentially - with some people who might not feel so great about our country. So far, war and nationalism hasn't solved our modern-day problems...perhaps real diplomacy will.

By the way, if he put on the pin now, wouldn't everyone see that as a political and insincere move?

Well, I've really gone on far longer than I should have. Have a nice night all. Yes, even GEM.

quote:

I get chills when stealth fighters or F-15s zoom over my head

What, no love for F-16's, F-22, A-10's, C-17's, C-130's, B-52's, B-1's and B-2's. And what of the air arm of the Army, Navy and Marines? Apache gunships just don't do it for you?! And to think I picked up trash with you.

Amy: Bravissima

quote:

Originally posted by Gus:

IMHO, for a potential Pres not to wear the flag is a slap in the face to the veterans, past and present who have sacrificed a helluva lot more than some young senator from Illinois.

Can't wait to hear what McCain would say on some televised debate in response to this issue, a guy who rotted in the Hanoi Hilton for years.

Please google "John McCain pictures" and tell me how many pictures show him with a flag pin. McCain is one of those soldiers who think wearing a flag on your lapel is a cheap display.

quote:

Originally posted by Gus:
First of all, you are funny Amy with the ole "flag pin on the left bank" comment. touche!

HOWEVER, you must note that the American Flag evokes a great sense of pride for many people in this nation, especially from the veterans of our great country from WW2, Korea, and even maybe from Nam. For what reason Barak doesn't wear the flag as token of support for his country absolutely escapes my mind. It may be a petty thing to dwell on but may mean a TON to the guys who stormed Omaha Beach or like my father, Island hopped through the Pacific to rid the world of the most menacing dictatorships man has possibly ever seen. Do not discount such displays of "trivial" tokens on a commander or politician who is supposed to be our commander in chief. If he (Barak) isn't proud his country (like his wife has opined on her own behalf) then he should state his opinion and formulate policies to better it. For better or worse, as we all know, the US is the greatest place on earth and we are fortunate for the past and future sacrifices that have been paid to make it so. Every time my father sees some flake burning the American Flag to display his 1st amendment rights, he wants to take him into the back yard at the prime age of 84 and give him what for.

IMHO, for a potential Pres not to wear the flag is a slap in the face to the veterans, past and present who have sacrificed a helluva lot more than some young senator from Illinois.

Can't wait to hear what McCain would say on some televised debate in response to this issue, a guy who rotted in the Hanoi Hilton for years.

Thank You Gus!

quote:

Originally posted by perplexed:

quote:

Originally posted by GEM:

quote:

Originally posted by little...way:
If Obama wore this would it all be o.k?

If he wore this, then I would have to vote for him!

If he wore that, he would be in violation of the Flag Code...

g) The flag should never have placed upon it, nor on any part of it, nor attached to it any mark, insignia, letter, word, figure, design, picture, or drawing of any nature.


I do agree it's a little strange he refuses to wear a flag on his lapel (the Flag Code does allow lapel pins on the left near the heart).

(h) The flag should never be used as a receptacle for receiving, holding, carrying, or delivering anything.
(i) The flag should never be used for advertising purposes in any manner whatsoever. It should not be embroidered on such articles as cushions or handkerchiefs and the like, printed or otherwise impressed on paper napkins or boxes or anything that is designed for temporary use and discard. Advertising signs should not be fastened to a staff or halyard from which the flag is flown.

So, none of these on Memorial Day or the Fourth of July, my fellow Americans.

coveted in lake ellyn: thanks for the VERY well thought out objections to obama...i'll listen to arguments like that all day, vs. this silly flag business or his pastor's problems. as i pointed out earlier, Nixon wore a flag pin.

quote:

Originally posted by little...way:

quote:

Originally posted by perplexed:

quote:

Originally posted by GEM:

quote:

Originally posted by little...way:
If Obama wore this would it all be o.k?

If he wore this, then I would have to vote for him!

If he wore that, he would be in violation of the Flag Code...

g) The flag should never have placed upon it, nor on any part of it, nor attached to it any mark, insignia, letter, word, figure, design, picture, or drawing of any nature.


I do agree it's a little strange he refuses to wear a flag on his lapel (the Flag Code does allow lapel pins on the left near the heart).

(h) The flag should never be used as a receptacle for receiving, holding, carrying, or delivering anything.
(i) The flag should never be used for advertising purposes in any manner whatsoever. It should not be embroidered on such articles as cushions or handkerchiefs and the like, printed or otherwise impressed on paper napkins or boxes or anything that is designed for temporary use and discard. Advertising signs should not be fastened to a staff or halyard from which the flag is flown.

So, none of these on Memorial Day or the Fourth of July, my fellow Americans.

Little…way,

You are correct. That’s why I never wear a flag shirt, ETC. It’s why we don’t use a flag on our Made in America logo on our advertising.


Amy,

My issue is with his refusal to ever wear a flag lapel pin. Ron is correct; sometimes the wearing of a flag lapel pin is a cheap display. Many presidents did not wear flag lapel pins.

I too have lived abroad. I proudly wore a flag on my uniform every day on and off base. Sometimes we caught a little flack from the “locals”, most of the time, they were happy to see us. When I travel abroad now I would never think of wearing a flag or advertising that I was an American, but my job is not representing the United States of America.

The flag is a symbol of our liberty. That liberty gives you and Obama the right to not wear a flag on your lapel. BUT… Obama wants to be the President.

He wants to take this oath:

I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my ability, preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution of the United States.

If he wants to be my president then he better not refuse to wear my flag. If he is afraid he will make Vladimir Putin or Khaled Mashaal mad by wearing a flag pin so be it.

I tried to clean up my post a little and it kept creating copies... Guess I will let it stand as is.

Perplexed, I don't think it's so much that he's afraid to offend anyone....I'd guess (and since I haven't spoken to him about this issue this is conjecture) he doesn't want to appear overly nationalistic - which can be very ugly.

Nonetheless, I appreciate your perspective.

No one responded to my question though: If he started wearing one now, wouldn't that just look political?



Little...way, true story: Speaking of where it is appropriate to put a flag, when I was in college, I went to visit my grandparents in Florida for Spring Break. One of my favorite pairs of shorts at the time were these American Flag shorts. I viewed them as the ultimate in patriotic. My grandfather had a few other thoughts on the matter....he wanted to burn them. He said I was offending him and all the other veterans in his neighborhood. Needless to say, I was devastated. I loved my grandfather (Poppy) very much and did not want to offend him - in fact I felt exactly the opposite about wearing them. I wasn't raised with all the rules about the flag (other than proper disposal and treatment of respect toward the flag such as not letting it touch the ground) and I didn't really view my flag shorts as a flag - just a flag pattern. Anyway, we did have a good conversation. He didn't burn them but I didn't wear them for the rest of the trip. He understood my feelings and I understood his. Doesn't that just warm the heart and make you want to join hands and sing "Kumbaya"?

OK, back to Hell's Kitchen!

What's that I hear? Is it Fleetwood Mac playing "Don't Stop" or is it the cracking open of a fresh can of whoop-***?

Hillary deserves every bit of this hard earned win! It may be time for Obama to give it up.

Gus and Perplexed both make excellent points. Well stated!

quote:

Originally posted by Amy:


No one responded to my question though: If he started wearing one now, wouldn't that just look political?

Yes it would... At this point he is damned if he does and damned if he doesn't.

So are we gonna have flags at the parade this year?

Just think what it would be like without them.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: GEM,

Amy, true story. Today I was at a funeral for my husband's uncle (a WWII vet who served in the Pacific and coincidentally didn't want any of the service medals he'd earned and didn't accept them) and I stood behind my father-in-law (a Korean War vet) at the grave site. As per the captain's instructions, we were to cover our hearts with our right hand, unless we had served in the military and then we had the option to salute. My father-in-law stood at attention saluting during taps and snapped off a crisp salute to his brother-in-law at the end. It was tremendously touching. I can't speak for my husband's uncle, but I'll tell you that my father-in-law wouldn't care whether you wore a lapel pin or not, as long as you were good and kind and honest.

So, it's possible to be patriotic and not wear a flag pin. It's possible to wear a flag pin and be a Dick (Nixon). Real patriotism is like a good marriage. You may not always agree and you may even fight sometimes, but you love and respect each other enough to make it better. And at the end of the day, you wouldn't want to be married to anyone else.

Kumbaya, baby!

Obama's Present Votes

Someone brought up Obama's "present" votes. This is a good read from a great writer/blogger that explains his "present" votes.

Do you think that Superman stuffs his shorts? Impressive.

Uh...you all realize that he is probably someone that you wouldn't normally pick on, right? Perhaps you have all forgotten that he is not like the rest of us....

Shame. Shame. Shame.