Ronkas/Amy: do you know who Gerald Bull was???? What did he sell to Irag? Who assassinated him???

As we all seem to agree, Desert Storm was a necessary operation. To stop the butcher of Baghdad from grabbing Kuwait and stopping the murder and looting going on there. Saudi Arabia could have been next with the invasion of Kahfji. The world agreed with us, including other Arab nations like Syria and Egypt. I thought Bush Sr. did a pretty good job leading the charge and uniting the world against a tyrant. I remember George Mitchell (now the steroid investigator) and Sen Foley from Washingto State, both leading Dems, voted and lobbied against the UN invasion with US particpiation. What a bunch of a buffoons/boy scouts.

And how did the US reward George Sr?? By voting him out of office.

As promised, with one of the BB's assitance, I will be sending some good pics of some military hardware dug up out of the Iraqi Desert. These weapons were shipped by Russia to Iraq in violation of the so called arms embargo legislated by the UN upon Iraq. Embargo's only go so far. Where there is a will, there is a way to get around them.

Finally, is the world a better place with or without Mr. Hussein.

As to the casualties Ronkas, nobody likes them, even the top brass. But one also has to think of the alternatives down the road if tyrants like Saddam are not erased. Look at Darfur now? Where are the Europeans?? How many tens of thousands have died there??? where is the UN as B Boy points out?

I guess my point is that despite our efforts to keep arms out of the hands of terrorists/terrorist states, they still have arms. Embargos only go so far, yes. How much energy, money, and lives to we expend trying to police the world? I think there are ways to improve worldwide security and that our current approach is not only ineffective, it causes more problems. I can't say I know the right answer but what has been done in the Bush Administration has just cost a lot of money/lives/energy and gotten us to a position that is worse than it was before.

I do believe a fresh approach with knowledgeable people combining diplomatic efforts with military and covert operations can work but not the way we do it.

Do what you've always done, get what you've always gotten.

Bitterboy and Gus (Yoss too), FWIW, I appreciate the dialogue and my opinion of you hasn't changed. I knew you were stubborn SOB's a long time ago! 'course I am too.

quote:

Gerald Bull

Oh, and he's the big gun guy....

quote:

Originally posted by bitterboy:

quote:

The posters on this board generally agree with local issues, but I see the potential for division when I read on national election issues.

This is an interesting observation by Grateful. I wonder why this is.

Why is it? Some are fully enlightened and others are only half enlightened. I'll let each person figure out what side they are on.

Anyways, 90% of politics are local. The 10% of the stuff that seems to draw the most furor and discussion has a negligible impact on most of our lives - so, that being said, at least we all are on the same page for the important stuff.

quote:

Bitterboy and Gus (Yoss too), FWIW, I appreciate the dialogue and my opinion of you hasn't changed. I knew you were stubborn SOB's a long time ago! 'course I am too.

Speaking for myself, I can't disagree.

Amy, have you been talking to my wife??!!!!!!!!!!!!

quote:

Originally posted by Gus:
Amy, have you been talking to my wife??!!!!!!!!!!!!

Will always like you Gus. Didn't need to talk to your wife to know you are a stubborn SOB. It's one of your best traits.

Anyone see the most recent Bill Maher show on HBO, very similiar debate with Tony Snow doing a great job. Though I like the debates on that show, I'm tired of the ganging up on the conservative approach. Mark Cuban had some good comments on the show too.

Here's some good pics from Iraq just after the invasion. What else is out there in the desert????









The Iraqi jet, an advanced Russian MiG-25 Foxbat, was found buried in the sand after an informant tipped off U.S. troops. The MiG was dug out of a massive sand dune near the Al Taqqadum airfield by U.S. Air Force recovery teams. The MiG was reportedly one of over two dozen Iraqi jets buried in the sand, like hidden treasure, waiting to be recovered at a later date. Contrary to what some in the major media have reported, not all the jets found were from the Gulf War era. The Russian-made MiG-25 Foxbat being recovered by U.S. Air Force troops in the photos is an advanced reconnaissance version never before seen in the West and is equipped with sophisticated electronic warfare devices. U.S. Air Force recovery teams had to use large earth-moving equipment to uncover the MiG, which is over 70 feet long and weighs nearly 25 tons. The Foxbat is known to be one of Iraq's top jet fighters. The advanced electronic reconnaissance version found by the U.S. Air Force is currently in service with the Russian air force. The MiG is capable of flying at speeds of over 2,000 miles an hour, or three times the speed of sound, and at altitudes of over 75,000 feet. The recovery of the advanced MiG fighter is considered to be an intelligence coup by the U.S. Air Force.. The Foxbat may also be equipped with advanced Russian- and French-made electronics that were sold to Iraq during the 1990s in violation of a U..N. ban on arms sales to Baghdad. The buried aircraft at Al Taqqadum were covered in camouflage netting, sealed and, in many cases, had their wings removed before being buried more than 10 feet beneath the Iraqi desert. The discovery of the buried Iraqi jet fighters illustrates the problem faced by U.S. inspection teams searching Iraq for weapons of mass destruction. Iraq is larger in size than California, and the massive deserts south and west of Baghdad were used by Saddam Hussein to hide weapons during the first Gulf war.
While there are rumors of Iraqi chemical and biological weapons being shipped to nearby Syria, the weapons may very well still remain inside Iraq buried under the vast desert wastelands. Some critics of the Bush administration have claimed that the inability of U.S.. forces to uncover weapons of mass destruction is proof that the president misled the nation into the war with Iraq. However, in recent days the critics have fallen silent as word quietly leaked from Iraq that major discoveries have already been made and are now being documented completely.

It's True

Of course, this wasn't reported. You would think that this would be some pretty big news.

quote:

Originally posted by GE Fan:
It's True

Of course, this wasn't reported. You would think that this would be some pretty big news.

Short of a naval blockade, sanctions don't work. These guys are LAUGHING at us. How long did Saddam have to move his weapons and prepare???

Quite interesting to hear the stories from the guys in the military either active or retired. They are NOT dummies. Very bright and NOT hawkish, believe it or not. I'm glad they are on our side.

quote:

Originally posted by Gus:

As promised, with one of the BB's assitance, I will be sending some good pics of some military hardware dug up out of the Iraqi Desert. These weapons were shipped by Russia to Iraq in violation of the so called arms embargo legislated by the UN upon Iraq. Embargo's only go so far. Where there is a will, there is a way to get around them.

Gus: I am so disappointed. I thought you had a scoop. But when I Google "jets in Iraqi desert", I am led to a Department of Defense site called Defend America. Not a big stretch there to find these pictures, you could have just given us the link. But the bigger question is, with two Bushes in the White House since 1988, aren't you concerned that DOD describes this plane as a "cold war era" plane which is "the fastest combat aircraft". Now, either this plane is obsolete given today's technology, or we haven't come up with a better design in the last 20 years. And let's not blame it on that damn Dem congress. Newt was the leader of the band.

Why did our spy planes not have a picture of this burial?

Well Ronkas, being somewhat intrigued by weapons technology, the only aircraft hotter than a Fox Bat 25 was the 27 model which only the Soviet Union/Russia possessed. Like our F15's, these are aircraft are with 1970-1980's s technology, especially from the Soviet Union which is a bit late as compared to the West. The Foxbat 25 was a formidable weapon in it's day, with supersonic sound and fairly decent weapons systems, but nowhere near the US capability. Both Gulf wars basically bankrupted the Soviet industrial weapons industries due to US tech superiority.

I had to search my archives to find these pics which were sent to me many years ago so I guess it's old news, but worth re-hashing lest one forgets, which seems to be the case, like 9/11 and the savage invasion of one of our allies, Kuwait. Now I know the signifigance of Memorial Day better than ever.

As to your question as to why our satellites and planes failure to p/u these images, they could have been buried at night and camo'd during the day. C'mor Ronkas, don't be such a doubting Thomas. You seem to place more credibility with Saddam than you do with the US govt and military. Rest the conspiracy theories. This guy with his rogue allies support was trying to hide the obvious. It's amazing to me that some people in this world will give the benefit of the doubt to Saddam and his henchmen as compared to G. Bush and his staff, including the military and the CIA. YOu think the KGB is so rightoues and socially correct? C'mon.

Again, is the world better or worse off with Saddam gone?? I won't let the ACLU and Amnesty Int'l. make that decision for me.

I"m done talking about this subject, we agree to disagree. Lets hope an imported nuc device doesn't end this bebate for us. AS an UN agency published, the largest danger to the free world is rouge nuk weapons (the pile from the former USSR) in the hands of terrorists. I didn't say this, the UN did.

quote:

Originally posted by Gus:
I"m done talking about this subject, we agree to disagree. Lets hope an imported nuc device doesn't end this bebate for us. AS an UN agency published, the largest danger to the free world is rouge nuk weapons (the pile from the former USSR) in the hands of terrorists. I didn't say this, the UN did.

I think we can all agree on that one, Gus. No one likes a loose nuke.

quote:

Originally posted by Gus:
Well Ronkas, being somewhat intrigued by weapons technology, the only aircraft hotter than a Fox Bat 25 was the 27 model which only the Soviet Union/Russia possessed. Like our F15's, these are aircraft are with 1970-1980's s technology, especially from the Soviet Union which is a bit late as compared to the West. The Foxbat 25 was a formidable weapon in it's day, with supersonic sound and fairly decent weapons systems, but nowhere near the US capability. Both Gulf wars basically bankrupted the Soviet industrial weapons industries due to US tech superiority.

I had to search my archives to find these pics which were sent to me many years ago so I guess it's old news, but worth re-hashing lest one forgets, which seems to be the case, like 9/11 and the savage invasion of one of our allies, Kuwait. Now I know the signifigance of Memorial Day better than ever.

As to your question as to why our satellites and planes failure to p/u these images, they could have been buried at night and camo'd during the day. C'mor Ronkas, don't be such a doubting Thomas. You seem to place more credibility with Saddam than you do with the US govt and military. Rest the conspiracy theories. This guy with his rogue allies support was trying to hide the obvious. It's amazing to me that some people in this world will give the benefit of the doubt to Saddam and his henchmen as compared to G. Bush and his staff, including the military and the CIA. YOu think the KGB is so rightoues and socially correct? C'mon.

Again, is the world better or worse off with Saddam gone?? I won't let the ACLU and Amnesty Int'l. make that decision for me.

I"m done talking about this subject, we agree to disagree. Lets hope an imported nuc device doesn't end this bebate for us. AS an UN agency published, the largest danger to the free world is rouge nuk weapons (the pile from the former USSR) in the hands of terrorists. I didn't say this, the UN did.

What I object to, and you of all people should know better, is that when there is disagreement, you don't dismiss the argument with irrelevant points. The ACLU and Amnesty International have nothing to do with this, and I seriously doubt they could make a decision for you. I also note that you quote the UN when it suits your purpose but dismiss them a majority of the time.

There is no doubt that many are better off without Saddam. And it would be nice if the neocons would have listened to Bush in 2000 when he said he was not a nation builder. But for you to make a claim that I would place more credibility with Saddam than with our government or military is just so much trash talking. With all of your lambasting of government, it is amazing that when someone else questions authority, you paint that person with such a broad brush.

Love ya. Now, isn't it nice how I got all of you off Hillary for a while?

Luv ya Ronkas! Point being, the world was behind disarming Saddam, including the UN. The reaction of the UN, like Sudan, has made me cynical towards this organization. They may see the issue, but lack the fortitude to do anything about it. I never saw Amnesty Int'l do a damn thing about Saddam gassing the kurds or draining the marsh's and purging the Shia from their homeland in Southern Iraq. The pics of the rape of Kuwait makes my skin crawl.

For sure conflicts have risen over geo-political issues, resources, and the control thereof. Was Saddam taken out due to his threat and control of one of the worlds most precious resources, maybe? Was he a de-stabilizing influence in an extremely important part of the world, yes I say?

Had he possessed and used WMD's in the past, yes. Would he have tried and acquired them again? Most likely. Did he violate UN resolutions? Multitudes.

Just because they didn't find any WMD"s doesnt mean they existed or could have re-appeared on the scene after this crook got his feet on the ground 5 years down the road. YOu can accomplish a lot with oil money. The Taliban finance via Heroin. Colombian rebels through Coca.

After Desert Storm, Saddam was wounded and his pride shattered. A dangerous combination. Payback was ever in him mind IMO.

Typical Clinton Response

Boy, how many people so quickly forget. These people never grasped the concept of the truth and still cannot not grasp it.