quote:

Originally posted by Amy:
and if what you stated previously about kids having to pick between foreign language and music is accurate, I would say, get used to it.

Yeah, no reason our kids should have to "get used to" such things as foreign language education in the grade schools, as is done in "many fine schools"!

Am I the only one who sees it as tho the more our schools say they are adding for our kids, the less of value they actually provide?

The "get used to it" is getting really old with me, especially as it relates to what lies ahead for the kids. What's wrong with challenging them at the level that they are at and dealing with what comes next when they arrive there?

I remember fifth grade year for one of my kids. The whole year was the ominous: "Wait til you get to Hadley." The level of anxiety was a distraction for the learning that needed to be done in fifth grade. It got as silly as some parents pointing out that it would be better not to bring the kid home for lunch in fifth grade so they could get "used to it" for Hadley the next year. My response: when they get there then they'll be ready.

A friend asked me this weekend about the changes at Hadley and then commented that it seems like every year the district does something that gets the community really riled up. Can't argue with that statement.

Actually, if we were going to prepare our high school kids for college, we wouldn't have alcohol free proms and locked in dances for Seniors. We wouldn't keep a tight rein (such that it is) because they need to learn responsibility, don't they?

See, the extension of this argument about bridging to the next school experience can reach ridiculous levels. That 5th grader, 8th grader or Senior will change exponentially the next year. Why is the objective to bridge them to the next level? To be helicopter educators? They already know the work level is much greater. If they are smart and challenged, they will adapt to Freshman year. If they don't adapt, then it is the duty of District 87 to help them. It should not be District 41's job to eliminate all obstacles on 87's path.

And whatever happened to wood and leather shop class in junior high school? There's a bridge to the future.

beyond the Music program, did I miss a meeting, or several, that outline the reccommendations from New Horizons? It seems that a new curriculum and thought process is occurring because of this consultation, yet I have not seen the report. Me not being observant is not horribly uncommon, but a shift in thinking of this magnitude (Which also necessitates more classroom space) should have caused more of a splash.

quote:

Originally posted by Rob Herbold:
beyond the Music program, did I miss a meeting, or several, that outline the reccommendations from New Horizons? It seems that a new curriculum and thought process is occurring because of this consultation, yet I have not seen the report. Me not being observant is not horribly uncommon, but a shift in thinking of this magnitude (Which also necessitates more classroom space) should have caused more of a splash.

Here is the latest communique.

Letter from Dr. Dransoff

quote:

Originally posted by ronkas:

This is precisely the philosophy that began the coalition which defeated the referendum. Let's treat those 10 year olds like real teenagers! We did not want 5th graders in that environment because of their age. Why should we make everything in middle school "like high school?" Why should they get used to it? We have excellence in its current form, and we seek mediocrity because West does it that way?

There was a time when smoking lounges existed in high school and jr. high school students (ahem) smoked in public. I don't think what's done in high school needs replication in middle school, and FWIW, the feeling is that the students get a better band and orchestra experience at Hadley as compared to West.

There are staggered times for starts in grade school, middle school and high school. There are differences in children at different levels. Of course, we could just flood the streets of Glen Ellyn every day with grade school, middle school, and high school starting at the same time. Might be fun to watch.

ronkas, a Hadley start at 8am instead of 8:30am would still allow staggered starts for the schools. I also firmly believe the elementary schools should start earlier - they have the shortest day in the county! Remember when they wanted to get rid of recess at the elementary schools (except lunch recess) because they needed more instruction time? I said then that they should start earlier and keep recess - spread the day out a little more since it is the shortest school day around but give the kids a break here and there.

Having a freshman in high school, I can tell you that the SHOCK of starting school nearly a full hour earlier has been trememdously difficult. Schools do have a responsibility to help kids prepare for the next stage of their lives - we call it helping with the transition.

ronkas, while I understand your frustration about possible changes in the music program, I suspect that the program will remain excellent and that the kids will still have sectionals. Most other schools schedule their band/choir/orchestra programs this way and it seems to work quite well. But please don't take these comments as my way of saying, "Resign yourself." You SHOULD be at the table sharing your concerns and working with the district to keep the programs as strong as possible while also keeping in mind that music kids aren't the only ones with scheduling concerns.

When I said "get used to it," it's because this is just the beginning of kids having to make difficult choices about what they will pursue....if my daughter could take everything she wants to take in the high school, she'd need a 12 period day. It's just life, my friend.

And while you know I love ya - and we even agree on politics, using the "high school kids could smoke on campus....let's just have the middle school kids do everything the high school kids do," sarcastic slap is pretty weak and completely twists what I was saying. I'm a school counselor and my specialty is the developmental needs of kids so don't insult my intelligence!

quote:

Originally posted by ronkas:

quote:

Originally posted by Rob Herbold:
beyond the Music program, did I miss a meeting, or several, that outline the reccommendations from New Horizons? It seems that a new curriculum and thought process is occurring because of this consultation, yet I have not seen the report. Me not being observant is not horribly uncommon, but a shift in thinking of this magnitude (Which also necessitates more classroom space) should have caused more of a splash.

Here is the latest communique.

Letter from Dr. Dransoff

Thanks for the info. This says it is listing recommendations for the 09-10 school year, but the LA block will be implemented for next year. Have these recommendations been approved by the Board already? Is this a test? Seems to me, if they put this kind of committee together and recommend changes, the average joe probably won't have much say in the matter. Great way to facilitate a building ref, when you show the New Horizons recommendations and say how much this will offer our children. How could you refuse.

Why was this group tasked to provide recommendations like "other fine middle schools"? This is really annoying. IF you want us to pay for program and facilities changes, make it so we are the leading edge in the State. Make everyone else copy us. Then we might pony up.

One of the most difficult decisions for me entering West was whether to take Band as a fulltime class or Modern Society. Couldn't take both, wasn't a choice. By sticking with the Band, which I had been playing in since 1st grade, I needed to take a significant amount of requirement classes to graduate in my senior year instead of some AP and elective courses. Seems to me that Hadley is limiting the students with aptitude in the arts to that and nothing else. The goal of New Horizons should be to expand the opportunities our children have, not limit them.

OK, this is really nagging at me so I'm going to say more....and I know, it's probably annoying - so sue me! ( I really shouldn't say that with all these lawyers around!)

I have to tell you that this is one of my greatest points of frustration as a school counselor (this and the lack of good, accessible mental health services). It IS VERY, VERY difficult for kids to make these choices. I have an unending supply of empathy coupled with the same frustration the kids and their parents feel about this. I think we'd all agree that once a student becomes involved in a music program - be they gifted prodigies or just decent musicians who like to play an instrument or sing - the students they are with become their friends and their lives end up revolving around the music program in so many ways. So, how do we allow kids to keep this very important part of their lives while still helping them prepare for so many other important ascpects of their future?

I still find myself conflicted over the requirement of daily PE. Yes, of course, kids need daily physical activity and preferably they get exposed to all kinds of different ways to be physically active so that they find what works well for them and they become lifelong active people. But, when does daily PE prevent kids from doing all the other things kids should do? I still believe that if a kid is in a sport, they shouldn't have to take PE.

Well, I'm going to really start rambling now so I will stop. But let this be my final statement (for now): The only bad thing about this BB is that people can't see our faces and hear our voice inflection. I think some of my comments earlier were misunderstood/misinterpreted - which I can completely understand. I hope my last two posts clear up that misunderstanding. That said, I don't have kids in music - we made a conscious decision not to stay with it for a whole host of reasons so I couldn't begin to offer any ideas about how to keep the excellence of Hadley's music program with a change in it's delivery but I suspect, ronkas, that you could come up with some workable ideas....

Have any of you spoken with the woman who quit the advisory board over the music curriculum decision? I know her to be a very intelligent and rational person.

My kids are up at 6:00 every morning whether they need to be or not. They sit around the house on weekends until I say its an acceptable time to go play outside.

I've never understood why elementary school started so late. I would think that the high schoolers would be the ones who need to sleep in later - not the younger kids.

Got to go with Amy on this. It's a great life lesson to realize that you can't have everything you want. Perhaps a life lesson that many children don't get enough, especially here in our little burg.

Yes, there are things that kids will miss out on by choosing to do certain things. This has been debated a little bit under the Park District thread. As adults, we need to help guide (not push) our children to their passions. We need to give them a chance to try whatever they want to decide their passions, but some things they want to do will have to wait.

Why does every child need to be excellent at everything they do? Do they all need private lessons or a trainer or to be on the travel team? Don't any of them need to have fun anymore? There will be plenty of time for them to find new things to do as adults, too.

It's part of the reason that I like no-cut sports for freshman. Some kids are fantastic at some sports. Some kids have played for years in organized leagues. But, some kids just want a chance to see if they like it. And some kids just want to have fun. Fun, what a concept? Remember, Michael Jordan was cut from his freshman and sophomore basketball teams.

As I've said in other threads, lighten up people. It's not all that serious, really.

quote:

Originally posted by little...way:
...Remember, Michael Jordan was cut from his freshman and sophomore basketball teams.

Makes for a great story, but he had the perserverence to stick it out until his body developed to the finely tuned basketball machine that it was. Most kids in the burbs are not so lucky or inclined.

As I've said in other threads, lighten up people. It's not all that serious, really.

The issue isn't so much choices, or lack thereof, as opposed to curriculum changes that are being imposed on students to force the change. I would like my children to at least have the same advantages as I did in this system. Foreign Language, Advanced studies...these could be taken elsewhere, but as Bitter so aptly points out, we are paying a heavy tax load and getting less and less in return. why should we move our choices to another arena, when we are already paying for them. These curriculum changes could also be construed as a ways to a means for facilities upgrades. If we want all these choices, we will have to pay more. Lack of trust in the process does not help their cause.

And not to nitpick but Jordan was cut from the VARSITY team...where he then went to play on the JUNIOR VARSITY team....as a sophomore....then a little over one year later he became a high school all-American got a full ride to North Carolina.

"Come Fly with Me" really did a great job shaping that story. And boy was that a great movie. I only saw it about 6000 times as a child.

Is the problem with the new plan that we can't trust anything that comes out of the school district anymore? I totally get that. If that's the case, then I can't blame anyone for not wanting to go along with it.

Is the problem with the plan that there might be a change to the music program? Would changing it certainly doom it to failure? With the excellent directors of band and orchestra, I doubt that both won't still be excellent.

Is the problem that some kids will have to make a choice between language, exploratory and music, with a choice of two? Then, pick two. Show of hands, how many high-achievers and their parents will choose to pass on exploratory? Most, right? So, what's the problem?

And Fan, this is for you: actual nit picking. There were much funnier clips with monkeys. Monkeys. Funny.

I was just trying to make the point that Michael Jordan's desire to play is what kept him working at his game. It's o.k. if every child isn't great at everything every year. They grow and change. They get new interests and hobbies. Our kids will let us know what's really important to them, if we just pay attention.

quote:

Originally posted by little...way:

And Fan, this is for you: actual nit picking. There were much funnier clips with monkeys. Monkeys. Funny.

I was just trying to make the point that Michael Jordan's desire to play is what kept him working at his game. It's o.k. if every child isn't great at everything every year. They grow and change. They get new interests and hobbies. Our kids will let us know what's really important to them, if we just pay attention.

First of all, I couldn't agree more...Monkeys = Funny.

It seems that this is a combination of all the possible detractions you mentioned above. Ronkas mentions that the curriculum change is being instituted without facilities being engaged. All I mention is that we shouldn't be forced into a facilities decision based on a curriculum change that hasn't been fleshed out yet. Why the change? The needs and wants of the board and Admin will be come apparent if we just pay attention.

quote:

Originally posted by GEmom2:
Have any of you spoken with the woman who quit the advisory board over the music curriculum decision? I know her to be a very intelligent and rational person.

I totally am with you...None of my children have participated in music in D41 so I didn't give this issue to much thought. That said, when the woman you refer to went public with her dismay at the goings on, I knew that it had to be an awful idea.

Agree with you, agnes and mom. I almost feel sorry for Dr. R. No, never mind, the pity is gone. That's the gamble of being an administrator underestimating your stakeholders, you never know who may end up on your board.

little little little won't agree with me. Sing it now. (little willie willie won't go home)

However: I know a child who needed pushing by his coach. All the cajoling and begging did not work until he wanted to do his activity more than anything else. He completed his assignments when faced with the joy of what he was doing and the consequence of losing that. What a nice kid he is. You know him. He is definitely not little!

Let me give you a hypothetical: you have a mathletes team and it meets every other morning at 7:20 and has random pull outs to work on their above average math skills. It is funded by a motivated group of math loving parents who host the most successful fundraising display of math abilities once a year called Math Mayhem. For one night the school system rocks with Math. That mathletes team (which would be formulated throughout the D41 system) is the best in the State, and you don't have to hire extra teachers or administrators to produce these results. No grades. Just love for math, knowing that it will help the student in every subject that is taught. It is an efficient system as it stands. Do we then decide to make a class of this motivated group and hire more teachers to eliminate the random pull outs? And then take away the opportunity to learn a foreign language or applied technology? Of course not. You give the students more, not less.

Change the subject to what you consider most important. It's the same thing. It's not broke. It's not even dented. It is the model for middle schools. But change it we must. We have a new horizon.

Paraphrasing The Who: Meet the new horizon, same as the old horizon.

Here's another hypothetical: You are a single, working parent. You can barely makes ends meet. You rely on bus service to get your child to and from their school. Your child would qualify for a waiver on their band instrument. You wish your child could be in the band but they meet before school when you are already on your way to work. You are new to the area so you don't know many parents and can't fathom asking people to give your kid a ride all the time. BUT, if the school decides to have band during the day, your child will not be able to participate.


I understand why you like the way things work now but I also think that if we want a program like band, orchestra, or choir to truly be available to every child, then it needs to be part of the day. I do realize that there probably aren't too many families where this hypothetical would apply but given that you, like me, are a democrat and therefore believe in helping ALL kids have such opportunities, I'd bet when you look at is this way, it might sound a little more acceptable. I also realize that you do not trust D41 and that I truly appreciate. However, I do feel that a good program will still exist AND more kids might be able to participate.

quote:

Originally posted by Amy:
Here's another hypothetical: You are a single, working parent. You can barely makes ends meet. You rely on bus service to get your child to and from their school. Your child would qualify for a waiver on their band instrument. You wish your child could be in the band but they meet before school when you are already on your way to work. You are new to the area so you don't know many parents and can't fathom asking people to give your kid a ride all the time. BUT, if the school decides to have band during the day, your child will not be able to participate.


I understand why you like the way things work now but I also think that if we want a program like band, orchestra, or choir to truly be available to every child, then it needs to be part of the day. I do realize that there probably aren't too many families where this hypothetical would apply but given that you, like me, are a democrat and therefore believe in helping ALL kids have such opportunities, I'd bet when you look at is this way, it might sound a little more acceptable. I also realize that you do not trust D41 and that I truly appreciate. However, I do feel that a good program will still exist AND more kids might be able to participate.

Your hypothetical fails for the following reason. As a parent, you will do whatever it takes to get your child the instruction and help they need. If that is not your objective as a parent, then it is a given that your child will not be in a demanding musical setting. Your child will have private lessons, perhaps supported by scholarship. In D41 grade school, your child would have been identified as a Hadley String Orchestra candidate, and the instructors will make sure the child becomes part of the team. If you have a child with the talent, their instructor finds them. So, if the desire is there, all it takes is a parent that cares to put the system to work. Of course, if you don't care, you will find every reason not to get your child the challenge they deserve.

I believe all kids should have music. I believe all kids should have art. I think we should stop teaching kids how to use a computer, and teach them how a computer works. I think we should teach critical thinking, ethics and philosophy. Finally, I think as a society, we demand and accept too little from our children. The top student in my law school was a music major. 2nd was an art major.

My problem is when we decide that everyone is the same, under the guise of treating everyone equal.