quote:

Originally posted by ronkas:
As a parent, you will do whatever it takes to get your child the instruction and help they need. If that is not your objective as a parent, then it is a given that your child will not be in a demanding musical setting. Your child will have private lessons, perhaps supported by scholarship.

That statement just about guarantees that my children will not be a part of "a demanding musical setting"

Whatever it takes?

I will do "whatever it takes" to make sure my child has food, clothing, shelter and love. Beyond that, everything works on a sliding scale.

ronkas, your counterpoint fails for anyone who has moved into this district from elsewhere that had their orchestra/band/choir program within their school day....YOU will do whatever it takes because YOU have the resources to make it happen. There are plenty of parents who WANT to do much more for their kids than they are able. C'mon, you know this.

Oh, and on your other points (teaching critical thinking instead of sheer memorization types of activities), I agree wholeheartedly.

quote:

Originally posted by ronkas:
As a parent, you will do whatever it takes to get your child the instruction and help they need.

Hopefully it is also what the child wants. Makes me think of this ...

One of my concerns with the Horizons concept is, again the lack of parent involvement. There were 2 parents on the Exploratory committee. One dropped out. The second is the PTA president.

How did a committee that was supposed to evaluate the exploratory program end up suggesting the change of starting time and changes to the music program. Hey this committe was made up mostly of exploratory and language teachers - maybe they want to get rid of those pesky music kids.

Aside from what any parents or teachers think about an earlier start, has any one looked at the studies about the effect of an earlier day on adolescents? I tried to find any source that said it was good for them.
Sleep studies
When my children were younger they were awake and alert by 6:30 - 7:00am now as they are cruising through middle school it has changed. One would sleep till noon if allowed. The other would get up around 9:00. Just because they will have to get used to this in high school shouldn't mean they should get less sleep in middle school.
Oh wait, we're doing this for the children.

quote:

Originally posted by Mamattorney:

quote:

Originally posted by ronkas:
As a parent, you will do whatever it takes to get your child the instruction and help they need. If that is not your objective as a parent, then it is a given that your child will not be in a demanding musical setting. Your child will have private lessons, perhaps supported by scholarship.

That statement just about guarantees that my children will not be a part of "a demanding musical setting"

Whatever it takes?

I will do "whatever it takes" to make sure my child has food, clothing, shelter and love. Beyond that, everything works on a sliding scale.

Mamattorney,
You are the best.
You always bring it back to what is really important.
Without speaking for ,but knowing a little about, Ron (and his significant other) they have the same feelings about what is truly important for their kids.
In the context of school activities however, he is rightly passionate about making sure his kids have the opportunity to make the best of what is offered to them.
The aggravating thing thing about this whole issue is that it surfaced through a "consultant" and a "steering" committee.
This is not the first steering committee at D-41 that was comprised mostly of teachers and staff. One of the facility studies a few years back which led up to the whole'07 ref debacle had a similar composition of teachers and staff.
Steering is illegal in some professions but I guess not in this one.
We need to change who's "steering" this bus.
There are posters on this message board who will be elected to the school board in 09' and to you I say keep the faith.
To those consultants and steering committees I say, buckle up.

Candidate- No, you are the best and I'm thankful you are so dedicated to our community. You help us "keep the faith".

quote:

Originally posted by Amy:
ronkas, your counterpoint fails for anyone who has moved into this district from elsewhere that had their orchestra/band/choir program within their school day....YOU will do whatever it takes because YOU have the resources to make it happen. There are plenty of parents who WANT to do much more for their kids than they are able. C'mon, you know this.

This is not always about the resources available or the lack thereof. My son does not want to eat green beans, even though he has yet to try them. Do I push him to eat something he does not want? Yes.
I believe some of the same holds true for these program changes. Band and the arts provide other forms of discipline than the core groups. They learn different ideas and this helps to shape how they think in other arenas. Losing out on the ability to find other loves because you have one is wrong, especially when the motives for this change are dubious.

This is a very demanding world, and getting more so every day. Foreign language instruction at an early age is a key to success in many fields. To miss that because you have a love for music is wrong.

By the way, don't Dems believe in providing every opportunity for everyone?

quote:

Originally posted by What'snext:
One of my concerns with the Horizons concept is, again the lack of parent involvement. There were 2 parents on the Exploratory committee. One dropped out. The second is the PTA president.

This I completely understand and agree with.

My objection to Ron's concern stems really only from one point: that the music kids won't get foreign language instruction. While it is certainly true that learning another language is important (especially in today's world), if we really wanted foreign language instruction to be most practical, we would only offer Spanish and Chinese. OR, at the very least, we would offer the same languages as the high school (since a major goal most parents have in telling their kids to take foreign language in middle school is to get advanced standing in the language in high school) but Hadley does not offer German even though the high school does. As a high school counselor, I see many parents FREAK OUT about foreign language and advanced standing in it. Many kids struggle in foreign language in high school and some, who have advanced standing muddle through enough to qualify for college admission but here's the catch: Colleges that require some foreign language for admission require two years. Some will accept a level 2 proficiency but others will require two years actually taken in high school. So, for the the kid who ends up struggling through level 2 in the freshman year, they MUST take level 3 in order to qualify for admission at every college that requires foreign language for admission. And, for those kids who want to attend Ivy League or other highly competitive institutions, they want to take all honors and end up in AP language. Sure, that's good and there will be a relatively small percentage of kids who can really do that. BUT, if a student doesn't have that option because their middle school made kids choose way back then, the college admission office will be able to take that into consideration.

The bottom line? Middle school foreign language instruction is not the be-all-end-all and if a kid is passionate about music and has to make a choice, they won't be doomed. Yes, mamattorney makes a good point....I guess I was just trying to say, "keep perspective."

That said, I think music parents should try to work with the school to find a solution that both the school and the families can be reasonably happy with.

I believe in reasonable doubt for a reasonable fee.

I think there is a little confusion about what the students will lose.
They will be able to take music and language. They will not have the exploratories. No art at all for three years then. What about health? This should be the time when they are exposed to all of their options, so that when they are in high school they can make informed choices.

If they are going to add a zero hour for gym for one quarter why not do it all year?

Sorry for not jumping on this thread sooner, people. I've been out of town part of this week and a bit swamped with other things. Hopefully I can get on tonight/this weekend and clarify/discuss some things.

In regards to the band/orchestra issue, the parents at the Board Meeting held at Hadley made a number of good points and educated the BOE (at least me - of the 7 members I am the one without firsthand knowledge of Hadley and the District music programs) on the stellar achievements of the band/orchestra program.

I think its safe to say that the BOE does not want to do anything to damage the success of the program. Its important to note that there have been no decisions, certainly at Board level, on what changes, if any, the B&O will, in the end, undergo. I told some of the parents after the Hadley meeting, and I'll tell all those interested here - send emails to the Hadley New Horizons email address, cc: the Board/Superintendent, keep your voices heard in every way you can.

I disagree with the poster who liked no-cut freshman sports.
IMHO by the time you get to HS you expect your opprotunites to be challenged, but where I take issue is at the jr high/middle school level. This is the time for students to try everything and see what they enjoy and excell in.

My older kids enjoyed some exploratories, others not so much....but they were introduced to new ideas and experiences. Now my next child has to choose what to lose? This doesn't add to her education.

My gut tells me that this was arranged to meet teacher or admin needs not children's.

and why doesn't Hadley have all sports be no cut?? It makes more sense to me.

mamattorney: Wait till the little prodigy starts playing musical instruments that are not a group Suzuki or Yamaha class. You will rent the instrument, you will take the child to lessons, and you will pay for the individual instruction. IF your child is drawn to it. As much as I wanted to play a musical instrument, I was musically inept and pounded a bass drum in a drum and bugle corps. Bottom of the musical food chain. Loved it, and my parents had to be involved to continue.

My daughter played on Glen Ellyn Raiders. She was very good for awhile, and had some potential. IF she wanted to work at it like the other girls. She didn't want to go to camps or additional practices. She lost her desire to play in that setting. Still loves soccer. She did the same thing with GECC. Chose Girl Scouts over it. Still likes to sing.

What your child loves to do (legally) will give you joy and you will foster their love of the activity. That's what I mean by "whatever it takes", and any other interpretation is a cheap shot.

quote:

Originally posted by Amy:
ronkas, your counterpoint fails for anyone who has moved into this district from elsewhere that had their orchestra/band/choir program within their school day....YOU will do whatever it takes because YOU have the resources to make it happen. There are plenty of parents who WANT to do much more for their kids than they are able. C'mon, you know this.

And you would know that Parents who contribute to MEF supports these families that need help. Presuming they were in an orchestra in their previous school, the parents would have already investigated the transfer.

quote:

Originally posted by ronkas:
mamattorney: Wait till the little prodigy starts playing musical instruments that are not a group Suzuki or Yamaha class. You will rent the instrument, you will take the child to lessons, and you will pay for the individual instruction. IF your child is drawn to it. As much as I wanted to play a musical instrument, I was musically inept and pounded a bass drum in a drum and bugle corps. Bottom of the musical food chain. Loved it, and my parents had to be involved to continue.

My daughter played on Glen Ellyn Raiders. She was very good for awhile, and had some potential. IF she wanted to work at it like the other girls. She didn't want to go to camps or additional practices. She lost her desire to play in that setting. Still loves soccer. She did the same thing with GECC. Chose Girl Scouts over it. Still likes to sing.

What your child loves to do (legally) will give you joy and you will foster their love of the activity. That's what I mean by "whatever it takes", and any other interpretation is a cheap shot.

It wasn't intended to be a cheap shot.

I think I am going to have a tough row to hoe in this town to maintain my beliefs regarding the relative importance of extra-curricular activities. But that's OK. I'm up for the challenge.

I like that Bob says to "keep your voices heard". Absolutely. The powers that be need to know what is important to their constituents. I just want to make sure that everyone remembers that as parents it's our job to advocate for our kids. As teaching professionals, it's the principal and teachers' job to advocate for every kid.

Again, I understand the loss of trust with the administration, but there must be some reason. I would hope that in light of the opposition to their plan, those in favor of it would explain why it is important to make the change. I fear that won't happen, if past behavior is any indication. I'm just saying we should know why before we condemn the plan.

I went back and read the hypothetical from Ron and inserted a sport instead of an instrument and it sounded pretty bad. Now, before you get your flame-throwers, I'm not equating music with sports. It's apples and oranges in some ways, but music is currently an extra-curricular activity nonetheless. I don't support most things that remove a child from the classroom (again, hold the flamethrowers). I believe it is disruptive for all parties involved. That's just my humble opinion and I'm sure I'll hear why I'm wrong about it, but I prefer children working as a team (always back to sports).

In an affluent community of professional parents, I pity classroom teachers who have 25 students and 50 all-knowing, all-seeing parents second-guessing every move that's made. Is that an overstatement? Of course, but it's an overstatement made for a reason. In our rush to make a perfect educational experience for our kids, we may be trampling the teachers and the kids. I worry that by making everything too easy for our kids now, they'll come to expect that life it just as easy.

As for no-cut sports in junior high, that would be fine, if there were more sports offered. There are more opportunities with more sports being available in high school. I think it's sad that kids already have to be specialists by the age of fourteen. If you haven't been in a league by eighth grade, then you can't start playing now is the message. At the play at Glenbard West this spring, Kentucky Cycle, there was a senior (who also plays football) appearing in his first play. I thought it was fabulous. He may not have thought about acting before, but he decided to try something new. He was pretty good. Some people don't try new things until much later in life. We applaud them for it. Just don't try anything new in high school? Really?

Ron, click on the link below and enter the hell that has been mine since yesterday. Go ahead, I dare you.

Are you man enough?