If any entity should shovel around the schools, it makes sense for the schools to do it, since they will have personnel or contractors out there every morning to do it anyway. Just more efficient that way.

However, one of you legal types needs to explain whether the District would take any liability in doing so. One could imagine a neighbor claiming that the District damaged their lawn or their prized [insert expensive species of shrubbery here].

This condition is also present at Lincoln, in particular the house at the southwest corner of Greenfield and Newton. I don't think they have shoveled all winter. I considered grabbing my shovel (no snowblower), but as Fan alluded to, once several hundred pairs of feet have trodden over it, shoveling is no easy task. I suppose I should get up extra early next winter to do that homeowners job, but to get there, I'd have to trod all over my neighbors' unshoveled sidewalks to do it.

quote:

Originally posted by jombl:

quote:

Originally posted by Fish:

Why shouldn't the Village take care of their own property? If you expand your reasoning we should be responsible for clearing the snow from the street as well.

Not quite - "we" are responsible for clearing the streets. The Village is an "us" not a "them".

More directly though, I did expand on my reasoning. The argument was made that the sidewalk lay on public property and therefore should not be a private responsibility. This argument misses the very real fact that individual private property owners already have a legally mandated requirement to maintain public property and community right of ways - no one seriously would argue that we shouldn't individually mow the parkways, would they?

Yet that is the simple question, do we continue to mandate, as we do now, that individuals maintain the public property adjacent to them for the greater good of the community or do we not? There is NO difference between mowing in the summer or clearing in the winter. Not anymore, the longstanding threat of legal liability has been lifted.

(another possible suggestion for ordinance - simply take the existing one for parkway maintenance and substitute the word snow for grass.)

Can you share that parkway maintenance ordinance with me? I did a quick look but couldn't find it.

quote:

Originally posted by jombl:

quote:

Originally posted by GE Fan:
First, Jombl - thanks for the lack of the response to my very nice e-mail.

My sincere apologies. I have pulled up and responded to your note from yesterday. I will try to be more prompt, if you allow a next time.

quote:

Originally posted by GE Fan:
Second, if the Village were to legislate requirements on homeowners to shovel one's sidewalk, where do you draw the line? What is sufficient? What happens if I shovel in the morning and the truck throws snow all over my walkway? What if I am out of town? What if I work nights and don't wake up in time to shovel for the kids? What if the snow is so badly trampled that I cannot shovel it? What if the sole homeowner is on bedrest? Come on, do we really want to get into this?

Excellent questions, but these have been answered by hundreds of towns around Illinois and thousands across the nation. It is obviously something that works well, if enacted we would not be breaking new ground here by any stretch.

quote:

Originally posted by GE Fan:
[If we do, why don't we have a service where individual owners pay the Village to do it for them? Just, you know, thinking about solutions.]

Many towns, Elk Grove Village among them, have services that match residents with teenagers or young adults willing to shovel. Not to be overlooked is that the requirement to clear sidewalks has been enacted in a cross section of towns, villages and cities encompassing all manner of age, ability or economic means and has not been shown to be a hardship anywhere.

quote:

Originally posted by GE Fan:
Can we really not figure out a way to make the walkways immediately adjacent to the school safe? And why should this matter have ever made it in front of the Board? Why didn't our INTERIM Village Manager (who has had this job longer than our former REAL Village Manager) head this off and come up with a solution?

A snow shoveling rule for public walkways, to join the existing GE ordinance that mandates mowing public parkways, does solve this - and it benefits us all. The Village Board should discuss and move on this issue. Times have changed.

Additionally, when only one able bodied person chooses not to shovel their walk it proves a disincentive to all. No one enjoys clearing just to have their neighbor leave the next piece impassable. A simple ordinance, with nominal penalties, would be an ideal way to communicate our norms and standards to all.

If we as a community wish to live slovenly with the least amount of effort or personal responsibility, so be it. But I think it would be in our best interests as a village to maintain our environment. Just the ability of children to walk safely - or you and I to stroll thru the winter wonderland down to the village, lake or around the block is reward enough.

Jombl my friend, you are continually blurring the lines of enactment and enforcement. Villages can enact anything they want...but can it be enforced and enforced consistently and equally? I would be very interested to see if any of these so called "well settled" ordinances have ever been effectively enforced and upheld. Or better yet, have the increased the the shoveling (blowing) rates.

Maybe the Village should do what the City of Chicago does, they come out, fix it, cite you and then lien your house. That would be fun.

And 87, to answer your question, and this is where I may not be your typical lawyer, who cares about the potential liability? We are constantly hamstringing ourselves by the threat of potential liability..potential to get sued. Newsflash to everyone on here - you can get sued at any time...for whatever reason....on whatever cause of action. Period. Whether the Plaintiff is ultimately successful is insignificant...you've already spent the dough. I think the risk of getting sued over some flower is far outweighed by the improvement of public safety - in my opinion. Besides, I have found that upfront and courteous communication cuts down the frequency of lawsuits almost completely. And when it doesn't, that is why you have insurance.

Finally, Dinsdale, you live a unique life where you are pretty much guaranteed to be on the same train each morning and the same train each night. 90% of people in Glen Ellyn are not in the same boat. For you to expect them to be up and shoveling so that you can safely walk to your 6:59 train each morning is preposterous at best. By the time 9:00am hits, the snow is likely so compacted so as to make shoveling impossible for those people. I blame you for stomping their fluffy white snow into ice. If one of those fine people gets hurt shoveling their ice...that was snow but for you, they should sue you for contributing in the creation of a dangerous condition.

Boy - that's a delightful system, isn't it? I tried to run down something, it said "replaced by ordinance 4670" which of course can not be found. Little surprise there, the system appears designed around Title and Chapter.

Kind of like being given a choice between answers 1, 2, and 3. Only to find that the correct answer is "C".

Perhaps I got ahead of myself - there may not be any requirements at all for public parkways and only the 8" high rule for "uncultivated plants" on private. Which really sucks - tying those two together was a powerful component.

As to enactment and enforcement. Just putting a minor rule on the books should possess enough suasion to motivate the vast majority to fulfill their duty, therby creating a sea-change in attitude. Again, no one likes to feel they're wasting their time clearing the snow when others do not include themselves on making the walkways truly passable and useful again.

from now on, I am simply going to snowblow all of the West side of Western to Hawthorne, turn right and not stop until I hit Hadley front doors.

This is not political rocket science. Get off your #^&%'s and mow the parkway or shovel the walks. If you see your neighbor's not done yet, do that too.

Hell, just an ordinance with no penalty should create enough peer pressure as to our societal norms to turn around this race to the bottom.


As to Fan's valid point about these rather new ordinances sprouting up and whether they've been tested, I believe the reference below is from the Illinois Supreme Court.

quote:

"I would be very interested to see if any of these so called "well settled" ordinances have ever been effectively enforced and upheld."

quote:

Dupage County Bar Association Brief:
What if your town has an ordinance requiring owners to remove snow or ice from the public sidewalks in front of their property? Such an ordinance is a valid exercise of a municipality’s police power. (City of Carbondale v. Brewster, 78 Ill.2d 111, 398 N.E.2d 829 (1979).)

)

quote:

Originally posted by Rob Herbold:
from now on, I am simply going to snowblow all of the West side of Western to Hawthorne, turn right and not stop until I hit Hadley front doors.

AWESOME!!!!

Please take a right at my street.

WELCOME TO THE NEIGHBORHOOD!

[Wouldn't it have been awesome if Herbold were ticketed under Jombl's new ordinance the day after he closed on his new house due the past misgivings of the prior owner]

quote:

Originally posted by jombl:
Hell, just an ordinance with no penalty should create enough peer pressure as to our societal norms to turn around this race to the bottom.
As to Fan's valid point about these rather new ordinances sprouting up and whether they've been tested, I believe the reference below is from the Illinois Supreme Court.

quote:

"I would be very interested to see if any of these so called "well settled" ordinances have ever been effectively enforced and upheld."

quote:

Dupage County Bar Association Brief:
What if your town has an ordinance requiring owners to remove snow or ice from the public sidewalks in front of their property? Such an ordinance is a valid exercise of a municipality’s police power. (City of Carbondale v. Brewster, 78 Ill.2d 111, 398 N.E.2d 829 (1979).)

)

Enforcement vs Enactment

You are still talking about enactment.

Are you opposed to enacting an ordinance which expresses our local view that sidewalks should be maintained by able bodied homeowners for the greater good and benefit of all children, students, commuters, and residents in general?

quote:

Originally posted by jombl:
Are you opposed to enacting an ordinance which expresses our local view that sidewalks should be maintained by able bodied homeowners for the greater good and benefit of all children, students, commuters, and residents in general?

No.

And I just read the Brewster case. That ordinance requires clearing the sidewalk or putting an adhesive covering over the ice on sidwalks and public ways abutting one's private property. I know for a fact that my property line is inside the outside edge of the sidewalk. Does that mean I'm okay as I don't have a sidewalk directly abutting MY property?

Ahhhh, the trial and tribulations of enforcement.

quote:

Main Entry:
abut Listen to the pronunciation of abut
Pronunciation:
\ə-ˈbət\
Function:
verb
Inflected Form(s):
abut·ted; abut·ting
Etymology:
Middle English abutten, from Anglo-French aboter, abuter, partly from Old French aboter to border on, from a- (from Latin ad-) + bout blow, end, from boter to strike; partly from Old French abuter to come to an end, from a- + but end, aim — more at 1butt, 4butt
Date:
15th century

intransitive verb1: to touch along a border or with a projecting part <land abuts on the road>2 a: to terminate at a point of contact b: to lean for support.

This is what a lawyer from DLA Piper recently told me is called "mental masturbation."

As to enforcement I would put very little bite in to it - I don't think much will be necessary. I honestly believe that a good deal of the problem is because people feel they might be wasting their time when the neighbor doesn't shovel his.

I would use the lessons and examples of other towns as a guide to structuring enforcement - although I'd be happy enough with just the ordinance and a token fine.

quote:

Originally posted by GE Fan:
And I just read the Brewster case. That ordinance requires clearing the sidewalk or putting an adhesive covering over the ice on sidwalks and public ways abutting one's private property. I know for a fact that my property line is inside the outside edge of the sidewalk. Does that mean I'm okay as I don't have a sidewalk directly abutting MY property?

Only a lawyer could figure out a way to question whether the public way touching his property really touched it.

So you'll be the guy with small little conforming edits to the snow drift?

Yes!

Say for instance that Herbold does what he is supposed to do and snow blows my sidewalks....but, while doing so, he is a bit negligent.



See the big snow chunk in the middle of the sidewalk? Violation or not?

If so, can I sue Herbold?

And just for the obligatory comment filled with snark (I'm surprised this hasn't been said yet), for most of the winter, I drove through Glen Ellyn on unplowed roads. If the Village can't keep up, what chance do we have? Can we cite them for failing to clear the public way? How about a little concern for the residents DRIVING to the train.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by GE Fan:
Yes!

Say for instance that Herbold does what he is supposed to do and snow blows my sidewalks....but, while doing so, he is a bit negligent.



See the big snow chunk in the middle of the sidewalk? Violation or not?

If so, can I sue Herbold?
QUOTE]

Ronkas, will you represent me!!!

quote:

Originally posted by GE Fan:

Besides, I too busy today to fight and spend a whole lot more time on this.

Man, whoever's clock you're on today is getting royally ripped.

Can't Rob just say that he is running low on salt for the season and he has to ration the salt to last the rest of the winter?

Glen Ellyn children walk to school??

quote:

Originally posted by Mrs Arten:
Glen Ellyn children walk to school??

LOL - best post today!

quote:

Originally posted by Rob Herbold:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by GE Fan:

If so, can I sue Herbold?
QUOTE]

Ronkas, will you represent me!!!

Herbold, reasonable doubt for a reasonable fee. Preponderance of the evidence for an exorbitant fee.

Fan. You can sue Herbold for an intentional tort, because when you flip over the chunk, you will find your name on it. He meant to put it there.

quote:

Originally posted by jombl:
Boy - that's a delightful system, isn't it? I tried to run down something, it said "replaced by ordinance 4670" which of course can not be found. Little surprise there, the system appears designed around Title and Chapter.

Kind of like being given a choice between answers 1, 2, and 3. Only to find that the correct answer is "C".

Perhaps I got ahead of myself - there may not be any requirements at all for public parkways and only the 8" high rule for "uncultivated plants" on private. Which really sucks - tying those two together was a powerful component.

As to enactment and enforcement. Just putting a minor rule on the books should possess enough suasion to motivate the vast majority to fulfill their duty, therby creating a sea-change in attitude. Again, no one likes to feel they're wasting their time clearing the snow when others do not include themselves on making the walkways truly passable and useful again.

I so wanted to call you on that more forcefully, but as I've learned in the past, if Jombl says it, it must be true! I just figured I was too stupid to find it! It would have been hard to argue my point if there was such an ordinance requiring we maintain the parkway. I need to read that Brewster case though, I'm sure it's reasoning is flawed!