iPods...

Not your core business, but could you direct a computer illiterate to info discussing the relative merits of various MP3 players?
I'm thinking of getting an MP3 player for my kid, but I have never downloaded a tune nor burned a CD.
What, if anything, is needed for an IPOD to be compatible with one's MS-based system?
How do the various models compare in terms of price, function, add-ons, etc?
Thanks.

We recently chose the RCA Lyra RD2850
RCA Lyra™ 20GB MP3 Player (RD2850)

It contains the same drive as the Apple i-pod and included accesories that allow you to play and charge it through your car.
It was also more than $100 less. We purchased it at Circuit City in Downers Grove, probably the first thing I've ever bought at CC.

We really wanted to buy the very, very cool i-pod but found that in the end, the RCA was a much better value.

The RCA also allows for industry standard connections to stereos etc, includes an FM radio (and can record) and allows for a greater variety of formats (mp3pro etc..)It is also recognized by windows as a hard drive and is therefore much easier to move songs to.

The Nov 2004 issue of Consumer Reports spoke very highly of it and really clinched our decision. (I believe the library keeps back issues)

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Consumer Reports.org Search Results for "lyra"
1. ConsumerReports.org - MP3 players 11/04
Ratings and recommendations on MP3 players.
Category: Electronics

2 ConsumerReports.org - MP3 player Ratings
Continually updated Ratings and recommendations for MP3 players.
Category: Electronics

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This message has been edited. Last edited by: jombl,

Well, Golly...

Anyone hoping for a real iPod under the tree will be very disappointed with a "just as good, but cheaper" rip off. Apples. Oranges. Night. Day.

-- Ted E.

I don't see the real difference between a real ipod and any other mp3 player other than a massive price difference and if I wanted to I could get my iPod in pink. Isnt it just a marketing thing to make iPods seem like "the thing to get this Christmas" when in actuality there are equal mp3 players on the market for $150 less. THis is what i have gotten from people i have talked to so I very well could be wrong, if anyone wants to let me know whats the real value difference that makes iPod better.

This is one of those things that you either "get it" -- or you don't. All the explaining on a forum like this won't make any difference. It will only be after you buy a non-iPod device... and compare it with your friends who have real iPods... that you'll realize your mistake.

It's not about the lowest hardware price. It's just one of those things that can't be explained until you try it... and then understand why you like it. It's not about price. It's not about what it does, it's about how it does it... including the support software that goes on your Mac or PC.

apple.com/ipod documents iPod's features and benefits... but I understand why you won't miss them until you don't have them.

-- Ted E.

Walking to work this a.m. I actually started to think along Ted's lines.
I'm not sure whether my kid has his heart set on an iPOD, but I can well imagine that there may be some cachet involved. And if the iPOD price is within our gift-giving limits, it will just mean he doesn't get as many other things. Like socks and underwear!

It really boils down to a Form/Function Left Brain/Right Brain decision.
The hardware within both devices is largely the same. Same part numbers from the same factories.

The difference is that the ipod requires anything that connects to it to be ipod specific. It is a closed system.
The Lyra allows any device to connect to it using standard cables. It is an open and widely supported system.

The ipod will not allow you to move your music off the machine, and only its software using its proprietary format can speak to it and move the music, only one way, to the device.
The Lyra allows anyone to move most every format to and from the device as they please. There are no hassles, locks, roadblocks.
Apple has continually updated their software to defeat any attempt to communicate with or move non-Apple music to the ipod.

The ipod has only four things that are different
from the Lyra.

1. Software. "Fairplay Protocols"
This software prevents you from using your ipod it most every way you may have hoped to.
You will not be able to move your music off of it. You will not be able to use non-apple formats. You will not be able to buy online music from anyone other than Apple. You will not be able to use a friends computer to move music from it ever, and only to it if they have an ipod installed.

2. itunes.
10 months ago this was a good thing; it was your only choice. But if you buy itunes music you can only use it with Apple software. Period.
You have none of the rights of ownership that any other alternative gives you.

"Fair Warning" This is OFF TOPIC, Do not reply to this in this thread, this is offered as an aside , not to further this discussion or for debate in this thread:
For an interesting discussion on your rights look at this presentation by Prof. Lessig of the Stanford Law School

3. The Control Wheel.
The ipod contains a very, very cool control wheel on the front. With this wheel you can control your device. It allows the scroll function to be controlled largely by touch, the scroll in the Lyra is controlled by pressure.

4.Proprietary interface.
Anything that you wish to connect to the ipod must be made for it. Anything made for the ipod will not connect to anything else.
The Lyra uses industry standard connections.

It is far from a comparison of "Apples vs. Oranges". It is clearly an argument over function or form.
I can only argue as to function, and in that, the Lyra is a far, far more capable and usable device than its mechanical equal the ipod, and it does it at a far better price.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: jombl,

The concept of someboby coming to my home and picking up my iPod and CDs and having them "returned within 4 days" kinda reminds me of something that happened to Jethro on The Beverly Hillbillies.

Hmmm... Interesting thought. Hadn't occured to me.

Something doesn't smell right. A WHOIS search shows that it's a San Francisco, not Chicago, company. I removed the info and link from the top post.

--Ted E.

Ted:

Either you need to go to bed earlier or sleep later. That is the latest/earliest post time I've ever seen.

Concerned,
Clam

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Originally posted by jombl:


_1._ Software. "Fairplay Protocols"
This software prevents you from using your ipod it most every way you may have hoped to.
You will not be able to move your music off of it. You will not be able to use non-apple formats. You will not be able to buy online music from anyone other than Apple. You will not be able to use a friends computer to move music from it ever, and only to it if they have an ipod installed.

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Wow. What misinformation.

Yes, you can move your tunes off the iPod. (No, not with iTunes, but there are lots of other software solutions out there that work perfectly fine with the iPod.)

Yes, you can buy your tunes from places other than iTunes. Remember, the iPod plays MP3 files, too. Last time I checked, eMusic had thousands of MP3s that are perfectly compatible with the iPod.

Yes, you can move tunes on and off the iPod with any computer, any time, anywhere, friend or no friend.

And yes, if you don't "get" -- or understand the allure of -- the iPod, you don't get the iPod.

It's like a Tivo -- it works perfectly, is a thing of beauty, and worth every penny.

here is my only question...
If I already have say...4000 or so songs(mp3s) on my computer, can I put those on to my iPod or not? Thanks for clearing that up anybody whenever you get the chance!

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Originally posted by YoungGE:
here is my only question...
If I already have say...4000 or so songs(mp3s) on my computer, can I put those on to my iPod or not? Thanks for clearing that up anybody whenever you get the chance!

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Yes. Very easily.

Fortunately, the kids weren't pressing MP3 players, so we don't have to make this decision this season. Personally, I have no desire for either an iPod or Tivo, so I am no judge of how beautifully they function.

Read an article the other day, tho, where teens/young adults were surveyed on x-mas requests. Choices 1-3 were generically presented as clothes, money, and car. #4 was an iPod. Not an MP3 player, but an iPod.

Similar to the way, if your kid wants an Xbox game system, you'd better not get him a Gamecube or PS2. And one or the other system might be the "in thing" in any given year.

The one factor that caused me concern was what I understood to be battery issues w/ iPod. Essentially, after a certain number of charges, you had to pay $90 or so for a replacement unit. Whereas other systems accepted relaceable battery units. This may well be misinformation, since - as I said - I am not in the market for such a device. But battery issues are right up there with compatibility when I consider portable electronics.

Most of these smaller devices have battery issues because of the slow degradation of the lithium-ion batteries. Same with your cell phone. So this, really, is a non-issue. (Or, rather, it's an issue, sure, but who worries about their cell phone batteries and whether or not it's a good idea to get a cell phone because the battery life is short? You just get it and deal with it when it's time to deal with it.)

And the newer iPods -- the 4G and the iPod photo -- all have better batteries. I've got a 3G iPod and get around 6-8 hours on a charge -- less if I'm constantly shuffling songs. (Although I've come to realize that if you listen to long, single tracks -- 20 minute audio books or a movement from, say, a Mahler symphony -- then your battery life goes *way* down -- 4-5 hours or so. I've been told it has to do with the way the harddrive spins for longer files.)

But if you're really freaked out battery life, then check out: http://www.ipodbattery.com/.

$29 buys a new battery and easy instructions on how to replace the old with the new.

The iPod is unique in that it's very elegant and very simple. It's like a Tivo or a Leica -- it does one thing and does it extraordinarily well. Sure, you pay a bit more, and if you're doing the sagacious grandfather routine ("Whoah, whoah, I gotta check out Consumer Reports first, kids...") then, yeah, you're gonna find that the consumer researchers have reached -- I'll admit -- very pragmatic, practical, down-to-earth suggestions about stuff like value, battery life, etc. etc. Important stuff, yes, but when you're in the market for something like an iPod (or a Tivo or a Leica), you quickly realize that functional elegance is a hard thing to quantify -- but it's the sort of thing that when you see it, you get it, and you whack your head and say, "Why didn't I just do this in the first place?"

This message has been edited. Last edited by: farber55,

farber55-
After reading your very knowledgable posts, i must ask you-
Are you an iPod salemen? or do you have stock in iPod?
Just curious!

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Originally posted by YoungGE:
farber55-
After reading your very knowledgable posts, i must ask you-
Are you an iPod salemen? or do you have stock in iPod?
Just curious!

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Ha!

I wish. No, I just like my iPod. It's a nice thing to have around when people are jabbering on cell phones all around you (I ride the train a lot) and you want a little zone with your own noise, not everybody's else's (and as Dinsdale pointed out, the iPod has a certain cultural allure to it -- and that's why folks tend to talk about "mp3 players" and "iPods" -- even though both do exactly the same thing -- play Mp3s and other "DRM'd" files.

Granted, non-iPod players need protected music from specific stores -- just as iPods function with protected music from iTunes, but there are plenty of other -- very legal -- mp3 alternatives to iTunes and Real and Napster that play nice with the iPod and don't force you to deal with digital rights management and "protected" music.

eMusic (http://www.emusic.com), as I've said, is one of the best -- and by buying mp3s from eMusic, you're able to support smaller, independent artists and labels. A good thing, IMHO.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: farber55,

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From farber55:

Wow. What misinformation.

Yes, you can move your tunes off the iPod. (No, not with iTunes, but there are lots of other software solutions out there that work perfectly fine with the iPod.)

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I was not trying to misinform, it is true that there have been people that have hacked the ipod. One can in the end do almost anything.

I was merely relaying what I found while making my decision regarding an mp3 player.

The truth is that one cannot expect to move music off the ipod. Apple has been very quick to rewrite their software, (ipod software is not backward compatible with itself) and very quick to use lawyers to keep these unlicensed products off the market.

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With the latest version of iTunes, Apple Computer has disabled an add-on program that let people transfer songs off of their iPod. ...The program's creator had already stopped distributing the software after Apple's lawyers contacted the company that housed its Web hosting....Apple has in the past used new versions of iTunes to disable support for third-party software that adds unintended file-sharing abilities to the popular jukebox software...."It seems like a big step to make all previous versions (of apple software) incompatible (with each other, or anything else.)," ... "It was nice while it lasted." (Cnet NOV 04)

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...Apple does need to defend its proprietary iPod technology, Deal said, since the device's top selling point has been the integrated package of the music player and music files sold over the company's iTunes digital music service. (Cnet JUL 04)

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The issue of proprietary connections is relevant if one wishes to use ones player with, and here we would list anything you can imagine to connect to..speakers, stereo, computer, etc...
With the ipod you MUST purchase an ipod specific device, with other systems you simply connect and use any of the devices you already own.

In some quarters Apple superiority is taken as an article of faith.

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Originally posted by jombl:

The truth is that one cannot expect to move music off the ipod. Apple has been very quick to rewrite their software, (ipod software is not backward compatible with itself) and very quick to use lawyers to keep these unlicensed products off the market.h.

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Why would you want to move music off the iPod in the first place? If you rip stuff you own, you rip it to a hard drive -- not the iPod. And if you buy unprotected MP3s, you'll always have a backup on your harddrive anyway -- because that's where iTunes takes it from to put it on your iPod.

And if you buy songs from the iTunes music store, the songs are downloaded to your harddrive -- and then moved to the iPod. So there's little reason to move stuff off the iPod.

If you buy your MP3s from emusic, BTW, you're always able to re-download whatever you purchase -- as many times as you want.

Why is this important -- to move from the device to your harddrive? (Or wherever?)

Having said that, however, if you must move the files -- you can -- and that seems to be the point of the discussion, no?

Apple can shut down the iTunes loopholes -- but the iPod has a thriving third-party software market. RedChair sells Anapod explorer, and lots of enterprising iPod owners have created their own applications. Remember, just because Apple doesn't *like* the software -- doesn't mean it's illegal. Apple can -- and will -- do what they need to do to protect their intellectual property. That's fair -- just as, I'm sure, RCA will do what they need to do to protect the Lyra.

But if you're buying legal music and ripping the music you already own (which most folks do anyway), you won't have any problems with the iPod or any other mp3 device.

quote:

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Originally posted by jombl:


The issue of proprietary connections is relevant if one wishes to use ones player with, and here we would list anything you can imagine to connect to..speakers, stereo, computer, etc...
With the ipod you MUST purchase an ipod specific device, with other systems you simply connect and use any of the devices you already own.

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Incorrect. The iPod has a headphone jack and -- if you purchase it -- a "dock". The dock has a normal line-out, and it's possible to get a decent line -out from the headphone jack if you buy a stereo miniplug and set the volume to about 75%.

The dock comes with, IIRC, the 40 gig iPod and can be purchased separately with the 20 gig. The dock also functions as a way to hold the iPod while it charges (but it's not necessary.)

You can easily hook your iPod -- via the headphone jack or the dock's line-out -- to whatever input you have on your stereo. Cables are available at Fry's or Best Buy or Circuit City.

This type of set-up is standard with any Mp3 player -- and what makes the iPod unique is that the dock is available that actually has a balanced line-out. Plus, anything you download from the iTunes music store can be burned to CD several times -- so while, sure, the iTunes music is protected, it has a pretty liberal copying/burning policy.

So I'm not sure where you're getting this information, but it's incorrect.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: farber55,