from the front page of yesterday's Sun Times...

"high teacher pay no guarentee of results..."

suntimes.com...

(looks even worse in print...there was a clear table of results. i was SO PROUD (sarcasm) to see D87 listed.)

"District ranks were determined by the Sun-Times using actual scores from individual ISAT and PSAE tests taken by each student in each district"

Glenbard Twp HSD 87 467 $84,567.50 18 101 61.9

Let me interpret: avg. salary: 84K. we were ranked 18th highest avg. pay.
YET....we were ranked 101st in achievement, with a SIXTY ONE POINT NINE percent successful passage rate on the Prairie state exam (the state wide ACT given to juniors.)

a slighly smaller gap here, but pretty lousy just the same:

District No. of teachers Avg. salary Salary rank Rank among elem. schools Avg. ISAT
Glen Ellyn SD 41 139 $66,413.08 33 68 91.6

D41: 33rd ranking in pay, 68th in performance. at least they have a 91.6% performance on the state achievement test.

Now for my rant:
No wonder the administration of D87 is so totally into "rigor" and has recently (against many parents' wishes, i might add) jerked around with the general curriculum. AP in social studies for sophomores? this is being done in an attemp to get SOME improvement somewhere, and help administrators and teachers justify their ridiculous salary and benefit levels (and let's not even talk pension.) their answer to underachiers: eliminate the "basic level" and throw these kids into regular level classes. fine idea in theory, but meanwhile they are cutting 39 part time teachers, AND with their new "no-drop" policy classes are now filled to the brim. the counseling staff at west is way over-burdened. kids who need to drop down a level can't do so because there are NO spaces in any classes, and some are failing. the administration has promised these kids will have help available to them, but i really don't see how.

they (meissen, garcia, et al.) are really doing a job on our community high school.

crap.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Ted E.,

I'm not sure it's that meaningful to compare teacher salaries to how students perform at a particular point in time. A teacher may have a student for only a single year out of a 12+ year course of education, and even a high school only has 4 out of 12+ years, and there's going to be a huge difference in outcomes due to the socioeconomic status of the students. More fair, in my opinion, would be to compare the gains made during the time a teacher (or school) is educating those students.

I have no familiarity with the different standardized tests but can anyone else provide some insight into the performance of the high schools considering the grade school students they're starting with?

You haven't learned to stop reading the papers and just believe what they tell you...have you, H6? When we bought our home in 1994, I totally bought into what I was told by the realtor and others and just assumed the schools were top notch. Hands on experience finally made me realize that they were adequate. So pissed that I actually had to come home and supplement what the teacher was doing at school. But I got used to it.

Even Chicago Magazine, in a back-handed compliment, recently praised GE for it's livability...while pointing out that its schools lagged. Especially D87, IIRC.

Just believe and go back to sleep. It will all be fine. It will all be fine.

BTW, what did D89's numbers look like?

i don't trust them to not actually screw our kids. ie, getting rid of the comtemporary world history honors class for sophomores. there are currently SIX sections of this class. the only way to get more sophomores into AP...cancel this class. why get sophomores into AP? so they (adm.) look good SOMEWHERE.
five years ago: they tried to get rid of so many extracurriculars your head would spin(not
football, of course) AND they cut the class day to 6 periods.
not to be trusted. and DO NOT have the kids at the forefront.
back to bed, jrb....
oh, and bastiat...i do agree that salaries/performance may not be directly correlated...but it sure sucks that (and this is personal experience) some really crappy teachers with tenure are making six figures. where else does that happen? how about user surveys and performance based pay????
and come on: 18th highest pay in the state...but 101st in performance? frankly...NONE of the glenbards has that low of a socio-ecomonic base...and the top of the socio-economic base (at least at west) is probably from families in the top 1% of all income groups.

Teachers in District 87 and everywhere else deserve to make a great salary and pension. They are responsible for teaching our children and most of all being with them for almost 8 hours everyday...We pay exorbitant amounts for childcare that includes nap and mostly playtime, yet when they get to school age, we don't want to pay someone to teach our children to read, write and learn how to become an educated being in society. Are there some "bad" teachers...sure, but the majority are good and want to help your child succeed, those that don't, there are plenty of avenues available for the responsible parent to address it. Do we as parents have a responsibility to back up our child's education...absolutely, but if we don't, we can only blame ourselves for failure to try.

Is NCLB a good resource to measure a teachers worth...INMHO ...absolutely not. Teachers are doing what they are told to do by an administration and board that is too far removed from the classroom and in our instance, doesn't have a stake in any outcomes.

The pay scale based on education and experience probably needs to go. Doesn't mean teachers as a whole are overpaid though. Crappy teachers are clearly overpaid but really good teachers are underpaid. At least that's what most national studies reveal. Makes sense to me.

instead of "great salary and pension..." how about using the word "fair."

Fair by whose standards...I grew up in 41 and 87, my children grew up in 44 and attend 87...Some of their teachers deserve alot more than they are getting, one or two over the years don't deserve to be called teachers, let alone get paid for showing up...my own opinion.

It's such a shame that it is only in education that high pay does not guarantee ideal job performance.

Everyone knows that having highly paid Wall Street and bank executives guarantees high returns for investors and shareholders.

The multi-million-dollar bonuses paid to the heads of our American automobile manufacturers guaranteed that they would create and market only profitable vehicles that people would buy in huge numbers.

Well-compensated Generals always win wars. Quickly, efficiently and cost-effectively.

The more you pay an actor, the better the movie.

When cable rates go up, TV gets better.

Drug dealers and pornographers make a lot of money, so they must be contributing a great deal to society.

The more lobbyists pad the pockets of Senators and Representatives, the better our government.

Everyone knows that you're just slackin' off... if your boss would only pay you more, give you better heath care and a better pension, you'd work harder and be much better at your job.

It is only in public education that we don't get what we pay for.

What do we expect in a society where we pay an ahtlete millions to entertain us and teachers, fire and police personnel, minimal for jobs that deserve so much more...

M2C. You might want to recalculate those numbers

Average teacher will have about five class periods a day of roughly fifty minutes a period or roughly closer to five hours a day not eight.

There are few if any ways to get rid of bad teachers once they have tenure. In the entire state of Illinois far less than a hundred are let go for incompetence every year.

Also the article wasnt using the NCLB but the Prairie state ACT to grade schools.

I don't get this argument that seems to say if you're child succeeds its because of the teachers if they fail its the parents and students fault.

You can't have it both ways.

Why do we pay Athletes and other performers millions. Simple supply and demand. Remember for every Alex Rodriguez there are dozens if not hundreds who never get anywhere near that level.

Besides no one forces me to go to Wrigley. But if I don't pay my taxes I can go to jail.

Gabe, I usually agree with many of your sentiments....but here the difference is that we (taxpayers) are paying for it....everything else you mentioned is in the private sector (read: privately funded). I understand what you're saying, but you've gotta compare apples to apples here.

Gabriel,

Wall Street and bank executives, generals, actors, TV shows, are all (or were until recently) at least somewhat accountable for their performance. The performance of professionals is not perfect and sometimes is not even close to adequate, but bad performance (absent government interference in the market) carries consequences and can be corrected. Underperforming CEOs get fired by boards, generals get replaced by presidents, actors that no one watches don't hired for new projects, unwatched TV shows get cancelled.

So how comparable are your examples above to teachers? Teachers are UNACCOUNTABLE for their performance. Some perform well, some perform terribly. They cannot be rewarded for good performance, nor can they be disciplined for bad performance. If a drug dealer cuts her product too much, she will lose repeat customers. If a teacher waters down his class requirements to avoid grading papers, he gets the exact same union negotiated raise as every other teacher year after year after year, until his gold plated pension kicks in, and then that gets raised year after year after year.

quote:

I don't get this argument that seems to say if you're child succeeds its because of the teachers if they fail its the parents and students fault.

Probably because I wasn't arguing (I seldom do with myself because I never win)...only stating my opinion and I don't see where it says if a student does well it's because of the teacher but if they fail it is because of the student or parent...I've held teachers accountable and also myself for success and failure. After all it is a team effort.

quote:

Average teacher will have about five class periods a day of roughly fifty minutes a period or roughly closer to five hours a day not eight.

I thought teachers did things like grade papers, prepare class syllabus/tests, deal with student/parent issues, coach sports, supervise extra curricular events, do parent teacher conferences, study halls, discipline hearings, institute days, etc.

All I'm saying is that there is rarely a direct parallel between someone's compensation and the value of their work to society.

And that neither the quality nor the quantity of someone's work increases when their pay increases.

Life isn't fair. Never has been.

Whether you work in the private sector, for the government, for a non-profit, or are unemployed.

Easiest way to attain wealth: be born into it. Why work at all if you don't have to?

Holy Bat Poop!

No matter how you want to look at it, there cannot possibly be a socio-economic answer to these scores. How in the world has the Superintendent A) not addressed this before the numbers came about B) not jumped off a bridge....a high bridge?

New Trier $91,261 PSAE 92.1 (Best in Show)

Glenbard $84,567 PSAE 61.9

DuPage 88 $81,691 PSAE 69.5 (Willowbrook, Addison Trail)

I guess I will no longer feel the slightest bit of shame regarding my less-than-white-collar upbringing. I now officially feel bad for my kids!

FWIW, with the exception of one or two teachers...all my kids teachers to date have been top notch.

How is he wrong- I think he's talking about our society in general and that we are way way screwed up in how we compensate people with regard to the value their work is to society.

Who is to say what someone is worth to society.

Money is only one way of measuring a person's value.

And it's not even a very good one.

For those who think that money is the only way of determining another person's worth...

Sell your children.