Ahh yes the memories do come flooding back when reading these posts. We used all the techniques as well, but shared the information free of charge, there was no selling of the answers. I guess in the material world these kids are living in it is all about laziness and the power of the almighty $$$.

quote:

Originally posted by Floyd:
Ahh yes the memories do come flooding back when reading these posts. We used all the techniques as well, but shared the information free of charge, there was no selling of the answers.

That is true, never in my "experience" were tests SOLD. Sign those kids up for Entrepreneurs Anonymous.

I know English Honors (at least my daughter's teacher) gave the kids a list of possible prompts for the exam - probably 10 or so. Then, told the kids that each class would have a different prompt and encouraged the kids to talk to their friends in the other classes to determine which ones had been used already this final exam week. So, my daughter, because her exam was today, was able to take three prompts off of her "must know" list and focused on the remaining ones. Still plenty of study needed.

I don't think she would otherwise ask friends who already took the exam what kinds of questions they had. Most of her friends would be mad if she asked because they would think it giving her an unfair advantage. Plus, my daughter is a very honest kid. Lucky me.

We had this same conversation last night! I kept asking, "Are you sure you understood her correctly?" It didn't seem fair to the students' who took the earlier tests.

Regarding the Pre Calc H students not having to take the final: That's a win-win for them. If their grade was on the edge, say a 90,they can protect that 5(H=6) by not taking the test and risking a low grade. If their average is an 89, they can pretty safely go ahead and push for the higher grade by taking the exam. Sometimes (attempted) crime does pay!

quote:

Originally posted by GE Fan:


I hope the kids learn a lesson, that they are not permanently harmed and that the teachers use it as a wake up call to actually put forth some effort and change their exams every year.

Not permanently harmed? The teacher should be giving these kids zeros on their tests and averaging that into the grades. The school should, at a minimum, be suspending these kids.

Is it true that one of their "choices" is to opt out of the final? Ridiculous. How could that possibly be punishment?

As for the teacher, this is something that certainly was a good possibility. But don't lose sight of who broke the rules here.

i know of a student a few years ago who had someone else take the internet placement exam for math for a big 10 university. this student "passed" out of the requirements.
as for this incident...while the teacher should change the test each semester, last year's test WAS STOLEN. i guess teachers have to step us security to see that the test doesnt leave their class room. but who's to say they couldnt photograph a test with their cell phones. guess we'll need security for test taking now! also, selling and stealing are very different than looking at previous tests in a file in a frat.
at my big ten university i don't think the football players even TOOK exams!!!

quote:

Originally posted by middlein87:

quote:

Originally posted by GE Fan:


I hope the kids learn a lesson, that they are not permanently harmed and that the teachers use it as a wake up call to actually put forth some effort and change their exams every year.

Not permanently harmed? The teacher should be giving these kids zeros on their tests and averaging that into the grades. The school should, at a minimum, be suspending these kids.

Is it true that one of their "choices" is to opt out of the final? Ridiculous. How could that possibly be punishment?

As for the teacher, this is something that certainly was a good possibility. But don't lose sight of who broke the rules here.

Well said...you should run for the school board.

quote:

Originally posted by middlein87:

quote:

Originally posted by GE Fan:


I hope the kids learn a lesson, that they are not permanently harmed and that the teachers use it as a wake up call to actually put forth some effort and change their exams every year.

Not permanently harmed? The teacher should be giving these kids zeros on their tests and averaging that into the grades. The school should, at a minimum, be suspending these kids.

Is it true that one of their "choices" is to opt out of the final? Ridiculous. How could that possibly be punishment?

As for the teacher, this is something that certainly was a good possibility. But don't lose sight of who broke the rules here.

Yes, not permanently harmed. A zero averaged into their grades is fine. A non-specific suspension is fine. However, something more permanent and more damaging is overkill. These kids, and they are kids, made some bad choices. Choices that should be punished at school and punished even stronger at home. [I know at my house the personal liberty of my children would be significantly restricted for a long long time]. However, these kids should be able to recover from this poor choice so it does not dramatically alter what they have done in the past and does not cripple their future. That's all I'm saying.

Thanks for clarifying your point of view, Fan. I used the term "permanent record" with my kids in the semi-joking sense that I thought most of us grew up with.

Any student going into this class is aware that it has a reputation for being very difficult and they have the option to take pre-calc non-honors. I hope there are a lot of parent/student conversations about this incident. For kids directly involved, and other students, I also hope the lesson ultimately learned is not that you can get away with blatantly dishonest behavior.

I hope this doesn't make its way into School Week. Although, given the super extensive coverage of the GWS drinking photos on Facebook garnered (stupid kids), I am guessing we'll be reading about it next week. Diane is probably on it already.

A fine week for D87 indeed!

I understand there were questions about AP history as well.

I wonder if the teachers who reuse the same tests grade them via sampling?

Not sure what the best response should be. Should everyone have to retake the test? I assume some cheaters did not get caught, and got higher grades than they otherwise would have. Of course, if I were a non-cheater I wouldn't be thrilled about taking another final.

But it seems to me that proven cheating should be penalized pretty severely in academia. The biggest way to make an impression would be with their grades. Factoring in a zero for the final, with the resulting potential drop in a semester grade, might make the difference between some of these honors students getting into the college of their choice. What do you think - is this excessive punishment? But I have to wonder, much less, and the kids won't learn any lesson other than to be more careful next time.

quote:

Originally posted by Dinsdale:
But it seems to me that proven cheating should be penalized pretty severely in academia. The biggest way to make an impression would be with their grades. Factoring in a zero for the final, with the resulting potential drop in a semester grade, might make the difference between some of these honors students getting into the college of their choice. What do you think - is this excessive punishment? But I have to wonder, much less, and the kids won't learn any lesson other than to be more careful next time.

School of their choice is enhanced by their choice to cheat. Interesting ethical dilemma.

A great topic for The Ethicist...

quote:

Originally posted by Clamato:
A great topic for The Ethicist...

I don't think that this is an appropriate question for the ethicist. I think anyone with a brain would agree that the student's behavior is unethical. However, the disagreement comes when one is asked to discuss the punishment. The fact of the matter is that students are under a preposterous amount of pressure to succeed in high school. Many are in classes they don't deserve to be in and many are hopelessly forced into these classes by well meaning parents/advisers/peers. It's merely human nature to swim rather than sink when stuck in these situations. It doesn't make it right, it doesn't excuse it...but it may explain it.

Should these kids suffer long-term damage to their prospects of success because of some terrible decision-making when they were 16? I don't think so. Should they get pummeled at home by their parents? Absolutely.

I just really like The Ethicist. That's why I think this and all other questions are good fodder for him.

quote:

Originally posted by GE Fan:
Should these kids suffer long-term damage to their prospects of success because of some terrible decision-making when they were 16? I don't think so. Should they get pummeled at home by their parents? Absolutely.

Yeah, but what is the "long-term damage" we are talking about. Instead of having the GPA to get into Northwestern or Georgetown, little Biff or Muffy has to settle for UofI or - gasp - NIU? And mommy and daddy's pressure (and checkbook) can't get them the result they want?

Oh, the horror!

Personally, I'm not sure the kids involved wouldn't be better off if they were to learn that there are clear repercussions for doing something they damn well knew was wrong. Remember, we are talking about 16 and 17 year olds here, not pre-teens. Other folks undoubtedly will disagree, but personally I'd rather find out that my teen drank alcohol at a party, than cheated in the manner these kids are accused of. And it would bother me a bit if our schools and community considered something like drinking - outside of school and during non-school hours, to be a worse transgression than organized academic cheating for profit.

I'm not heartbroken over the idea of these little princes and pricesses having to work their way through a state school instead of the selective private school of their choice. Be realistic. Dropping their grade and suspending them isn't going to doom them to a life working at McDonalds. It just might have the effect that they are going to learn that they aren't going to get EVERYTHING exactly the way they might like it. Too damn bad. They took a chance, screwed up, and they got caught.

In very general terms, I've got no real problem with anyone deciding to take risks and bend/break the rules as they wish. But they should be willing to face the music should they get caught.

Dinsdale:

You are ignoring my definition of "long-term damage" for your dumbed down, fluffier version of my version of "long-term damage." I would support, %100, a reduction in these kids' grades by one, two or even three levels. (Make the B a C, or a D or an F). What I don't support is expulsion or some type of "permanent record" stamp this is impossible to remove or impossible to remedy by good behavior, community service or hard work. That's all.

There is a long-term consequence for the kids who were suspended, regardless of what the high school does with the final exam grades.

College applications ask about disciplinary action and students must sign a statement on the application affirming that they have disclosed all disciplinary action against them.

If they don't tell of the infraction and the college sees an attendance record that raises questions, they could get caught in the lie, making their application immediately dismissed.

If they are honest (as they should be) they must explain what they did, why the did it, why it won't happen again, and why the college should trust them. Not an easy task for something as pre-meditated as cheating like this.

Food fights, fights (if only once), and other moments of impulsivity are more likely to be dismissed as a one time mistake (obviously only if it is a one-time mistake) but cheating is a hard infraction to look past. The college admission folks will wonder how many times the student cheated before getting caught and how much of their grade is about their actual academic ability and stamina versus the cheating...not good.

My guess is that the same parents who pressure kids to take classes that are over their heads will make enough of an issue of any punishment that it somehow goes away.

People, even people under eighteen, should be held accountable for their actions. It seems obvious to most of us which decisions kids make that are just stupid, but not harmful. I don't think stealing and cheating are harmless.

Okay - here's the scoop as they're telling it at school. The main perpetrator is suspended, and may be expelled. I had never heard a bad thing about this kid before, but this first one is a doozy!

The cheaters had the stolen exam answers programmed into their calculators.

Students caught with the answers are receiving a zero for the exam. They also receive some super-detentions of 3-hour duration.

Students who already took the test have to re-take the test or let the first and second quarter pre-final grades stand. I assume they are doing this since they don't know who took the exam and cheated, but wasn't caught. Non-cheaters are expressing relief at not buying the answers - reports of the price vary from $15 - $80. Someone was offered the answers and immediately called the dean's office to report it.

This sounds to me like it was handled pretty well by D87 - I'm sure the discussions have already begun as to how to prevent this in the future.