quote:

Originally posted by SoEllynGuy:
After thinking about this for a while, this issue has become pretty muddled for me.

Is it wrong to use a previous test as a study guide?

No. Every lawyer has used the tests on file to prepare for finals in law school. And then wondered where their idiot professor got the new questions.

Since when do we decide what's right and wrong based on what a lawyer finds acceptable?

Sorry. Couldn't help it.

I seem to think that bar exam study companies like Bar-Bri and PMBR would take issue with the allegation that using prior tests as study guides is cheating or unacceptable.

I for one was beyond happy that I had prepared so well for the bar exam by taking thousands of questions from prior exams that I recognized at least 15% of the actual bar exam as questions that I had seen before.

In law school and college, the smart ones would collect as many old exams as possible so as to best prepare for the actual exam. If the teachers were too lazy to change the questions, and the other kids were too lazy or too dumb to lawfully seek out old exams, that wasn't my problem...as it was an advantage I earned. (if it was an advantage - as I had been burned by that as well - argh, the memories of advanced criminal procedure - I didn't study one thing on the exam....not one).

- Caveat - Illegally obtaining the exam is a whole different animal and is not condoned under ANY circumstance.

As God knows, how I hate those scan tron/standardized tests. Only way to steal a newly created test is ala Bluto and DDay in Animal House via diving through the dumpster after hours. God Bless Faber College.

All the test prep gives sample, retired questions not currently used ones.

Anytime a kid has to pay $12 for a "retired" test, they should be suspect. I mean, to cover the cost of photocopying, fine...maybe $3???? The teachers should never re-use old tests but as soon as the problems were found on the calculators, that's a pretty good indicator that the kids thought it would help them on the test in a not-so-innocent way.

quote:

Originally posted by Amy:
All the test prep gives sample, retired questions not currently used ones.

Not so true. My bar exam experience directly conflicts with that.

quote:

Originally posted by GE Fan:

quote:

Originally posted by Amy:
All the test prep gives sample, retired questions not currently used ones.

Not so true. My bar exam experience directly conflicts with that.

Second that

THAT's why too many people pass the bar and become lawyers!

MCAT isn't like that. ACT and SAT aren't like that. They are new questions - only retired questions make it into review sessions/books.

Amy, Ron and I are talking about subject proficiency exams. The Bar exam, the CPA exam, the Serious 7, final exams, etc. It's unfair to compare those to standardized assessment exams that have no rational relation to the knowledge of a subject or specific subject proficiency. IMO.

quote:

Originally posted by Amy:
THAT's why too many people pass the bar and become lawyers!

MCAT isn't like that. ACT and SAT aren't like that. They are new questions - only retired questions make it into review sessions/books.

Save it Amy. I can't get a law degree in another country.

quote:

Originally posted by ronkas:

quote:

Originally posted by SoEllynGuy:
After thinking about this for a while, this issue has become pretty muddled for me.

Is it wrong to use a previous test as a study guide?

No. Every lawyer has used the tests on file to prepare for finals in law school. And then wondered where their idiot professor got the new questions.

I was under the impression they just studied from the tests they failed?
http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=96231

Don't know about that, since I only took it once. Never liked to focus on someone's failures on the bar exam. What's funny or clever to some is crushing to others. I had friends in law school who did not pass the first time, and it wasn't pretty. They were much smarter than me.

quote:

Originally posted by GE Fan:
Amy, Ron and I are talking about subject proficiency exams.

Hell, I thought it was some kind of fraternal hazing ritual!

The believability of this kid's story falls short for me when he admits buying and sharing the test as a study guide, but claims he never knew it was the actual exam until he was looking at it on test day. He was connected enough to get the test, but neither he nor any of his friends - including the two he shared the cost with - were clued in by anyone, ever that it was the exam? (I am assuming that your friends you study with would tell you that you had the actual test if they knew themselves.) It was in such wide discussion before the test that the administration reported a teacher overheard students talking about it and that led to the bust.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: GEmom2,

I was joking about too many people passing the bar - I know it's a difficult exam. That's why I put the emoticon....so Ron, I must not understand your response.

I misunderstood the comment about using the past exam files to study for finals to mean the bar - my apologies. However, my experience in college was very different. Yes, some professors put their tests on file and we could go pay for copies. Once in a great while, I might find a question that was exactly the same as the filed tests I was able to study from. I found it most helpful in preparing for the STYLE of each professor's exams because God knows, some of my professors had very unique testing styles!

Regardless, getting files that are provided by the professor are totally different than buying a test from a peer. Completely. I think as adults, role models, parents, we need to tell kids it's wrong and it's cheating. We wouldn't have many very expensive and disappointing problems in this country if people were honest (can you say performance enhancing drugs, ENRON, or Arthur Andersen????). Cheating undermines one's sense of actual value and builds up un-earned confidence which can be devastating to kids as they venture out into college or work. And it's a slippery slope - much like lying - eventually people end up cheating on things they never would have thought they would do.

Ethics are hard to maintain and teach your kids in today's world. I tell mine that their standard for behavior should NOT be what they can get away with, but what is the right thing to do.

Read the paper every day and you can see how tough a sell that is becoming.

quote:

Originally posted by little...way:
Since when do we decide what's right and wrong based on what a lawyer finds acceptable?

Sorry. Couldn't help it.

I guess if I'd have added an emoticon, it would have been clear that I was teasing Ron. Jeez, didn't mean to make a deal.

If it's standard for the teaching body to give tests to the learning body, clearly, not cheating. If tests just show up on the open market, pretty good chance it's cheating.

quote:

the Serious 7

I don't know what this is, but I find the name very funny.

quote:

Originally posted by Buggy24:

quote:

the Serious 7

I don't know what this is, but I find the name very funny.

I'm an idiot...I meant Series 7.

But, here is one of the Serious 7.

i skimmed the story in the School newspaper thingy yesterday...i was embarrased for the kid, and parents. poor kid, he/she sounded so confused and hurt by those mean old deans at GBW...if money changed hands then that's it, in my book. for it to have truly not been cheating then the person with the test needed to distribute it to EVERYONE in the class. of course, that would sure mess up the curve. and putting it on the calculators?! come on! ! sorry, no NU/UofC for you...